SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Room to Grow.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I'm Curtis Brown. And I'm Joni Fenderberg. We work together at Texas Instruments, and we're glad you're here. We're looking to continually improve our practice, and we understand that you are too. We hope that you'll find this podcast as a room for you to grow along with us as we wrestle with and explore ideas about teaching math even better. In this episode, Curtis and I continue our conversation with Robert Adut, founder of Yay Math. We consider Robert's idea of whether or not teaching is a service profession and why approaching our work with students from a service perspective might impact their feelings about learning math. Robert reminds us that there is no one personality type that is predetermined to be an expert educator. But rather, teachers with all types of styles can be profoundly impactful for students. We also drive home that we are all human, and what many students want most is just to know that we have their backs. So let's grow. Robert, we're thrilled to continue our conversation with you, and we really hope that people enjoyed our previous episode where we talked a lot about students' math anxiety. I want to shift our thinking now and our conversation to a teacher-focused side of the work that you've done, and really some thoughts about the teacher's impact on students and their math anxiety. So, you know, in our planning conversation, you mentioned this idea, and I've been thinking about this a lot. So I'd really love for you to elaborate a little bit on this idea of teaching as actually being a service position. So talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that and your thoughts around it.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Sure. Thank you. Thanks for having me back on. Um, I look forward to continuing this dialogue with the two of you. Thank you. Uh the um the concept of service is that it's it rolls off the tongue so well. Yeah, teaching, it's a service position. It's a service, like we are public servants, one could say. And and everyone, you can get a round of applause at any venue. Oh, and it's a teacher, fourth grade teacher, and everyone would applaud, and they have a and they should, and they should. And it it if everything's true, you know. But it's like, well, what kind of service are we are we serving? Who are is it who are we serving? Is it a pr are they people, or is it a cause we're serving, like the cause of the education of the future of America, let's say, or wherever the person is, and whatever country they're in. Um, and then there's this idea of customer service. That's another form of service. And I'll take you back to a faculty meeting one day. We had our faculty meetings Friday afternoon. They were usually really, really great because it's good, good vibes, good energy in the in the room Friday afternoon after class, you know, talk about the affairs, and then everyone sort of hangs out. We're all friends. And so someone then suggested whether or not we should apply the tenets of customer service in our teaching practice. And literally half the room lost their mind. We're talking volcanic eruptions off the top of their off their cranium, smoke out of the ears. Yeah, there it hit a button. It hit a button, and there were there were two camps. There are two camps, and it was very evenly split. Fascinating. Camp number one is I am an academic, I'm a scholar. I don't do customer service. I if I was working at a restaurant, I would. Fine, happily. That's part of the job. Hospitality, okay. But I am an academ, I'm a teacher. This is my profession. Right? That was one. And the other is like, hey, don't you want them to feel like walking and they're walking on clouds? Doesn't matter what you call it. When you follow up with a parent and say, Johnny did really well on this test and he worked very hard this this month. Isn't that customer service?

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Is it?

SPEAKER_03 4:12

I mean, are aren't they? Call it what you want, but it's that. It is that. That's exactly what a hotel would do. It's like, we hope you had a wonderful stay.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

We noticed that you left your uh flip-flops in the room. Um, you know, would you be able to, we're holding them for you if you want to get them. Oh no, thank you. That's fine. I I don't need or yes, I've been looking for those. Right. Isn't it's the same thing? It's a follow-through, it's engagement. It's so it was really fascinating to hear the scholars of the room not like it at all. And uh and maybe you could tell from this the from my impression of the scholars that I I disagree with them respectfully. I I I I disagree with them.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

I I you know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Not the likes showing your cards there. I'm not sure you have a good poker face or not. We've never played poker together.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

I put a lot of breath, a lot of breath in my answer. For sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, I I was pretty sure which camp you were in. Yes.

unknown 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah. Well, you know, in all fairness though, I guess I guess that there's this issue of respect for teachers, right? So I can certainly see, I can hear that at the heart of that scholar pushback, right? Like, I am not at your service. I am not at the service of 15-year-olds and their parents. You know, it's more like I have, I, I bring value to the table, and I want to be respected for the value that I bring to the table. And I, you know, I find that really interesting because I don't think it's an either-or. I mean, why can't it be like a yes and? Yes, you're a scholar and you are serving your community. You're serving the community of students in your classroom, the community of their families, the community of your fellow faculty members, the community of your actual social neighborhood, you know, your actual community. So I think it can be both of those things at the same time. It's a, it's, it's a really um, it's a really interesting way to think about uh to think about the teaching profession as a service industry. And, you know, I'm curious from a uh, you know, what are your thoughts from a student perspective about maybe you can speak to this a little bit from your story in the faculty room? Like, what would a student experience be in a classroom where the teacher feels this sort of service orientation versus a teacher who maybe doesn't think of it that way, the teacher that is more, I am a scholar and I deserve respect because of my job title or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Right. Well, first of all, I want to back up just for a second. I really I want to acknowledge your your brilliance in parsing the words. You know, you could say that it's a service position, but I'm not at your service. So very interesting uh like uh inflection on the face. And I I appreciate that. I I I I find those types of phrase of that phrase work uh fascinating because you can create an entirely different um sentiment with uh just the turn of using the same word of service. Right. I I I appreciate I appreciate that you're able to do that. Um and and yeah, to the look, look, there is in the middle ground, like you said, that both can be true. This concept of being a professional. Being a professional. Um a professional, for example, when he or she makes a mistake, apologizes.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

So it is that service? Is that I think that's service. That's I'm I'm I'm at I'm doing the appropriate response. You're right. I did not post the due date of that assignment. Yes, my mistake. All right, I'm gonna post that, and you have the same amount of time. Okay, so you'll have until next week to do it now. All right, any other questions? So to me, that type of uh um like um fix is an act of service. It's uh you're you're you're there for your students, and it's um, but it's also it's professionalism because it's like I'm not I'm a human. You know that I'm a human. Did you guys know? Is it confirmed? I'm human now.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Ha ha ha. Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

I'm a human now. You know, it's like uh I do have a first name, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

I go to the grocery store. Yeah. This what's interesting too, I will say, um, anecdotally speaking, I want you to think about this following thing and see if it resonates with you. This is just all in my anecdotal experience. The people that said I am a scholar and I'm an academic, there was a direct correlation between that cohort and the people that did not like to be seen at Trader Joe's. Yeah.

unknown 9:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

I loved, I loved seeing people out. I love seeing people out. There's this restaurant in LA called Aroma that was usually up like open lays, like a coffee place, cheesecakes, different types of like Mediterranean cuisine. And a lot of the people would go there. Everyone would go, I would see people there Saturday night, 11 p.m. It was great. I loved it. I think there's something there. I think there's something there. It's like, well, is that it are you a community member? Yeah. Is that service? Sure. Sure. Are you are do you not want to look? Maybe you're shy. That's okay. I I wanna I wanna be do be fair. Maybe you like you value your privacy, you know, so it's okay, just say ha hello and and stuff like that. But to actually dislike it, if you dislike it, then like you know, maybe you have to think about that a little. What's there to dislike? You know, they they they want to say hi.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah, I think that goes to our personalities a little bit. So I too loved to see my students out. I loved to um to see them at the football games. You know, they they would see me show up at the football games and we could have a conversation and there was uh there was a bit of of um you know rapport building that happens because of that. I I truly believe that the relationships are um are built um in those kinds of situations as much as they can be built uh in uh in my classroom, right? I think that that those two experiences um show me as a real human. I'm glad to hear you uh acknowledge that you're a human as well. Uh that's a good that's a good thing. But uh, you know, I uh Robert, I sense that your personality, my personality, Joni, uh Joni's personality, we all kind of uh uh edge towards this this um more uh uh excitable and and kind of uh really uh loud and and kind of uh entertaining uh types of folks, right? I mean we we we tend to be extroverts. I I I feel I feel that uh from the three of us as we're as we're chatting and having this conversation. And uh you mentioned the last time when you were introducing yourself, right, that you had you brought a pharaoh suit uh into your into your classroom and and joked about being a mathematician. Uh and and I guess that goes to now then the question of, well, uh what about the teacher whose personality? Maybe maybe it is the those who answered scholar, right? That I'm a scholar and I'm I you know I don't like to see my students out in the class and I'm not so sure about this concept of customer service um because I'm a professional. What what about those folks who who kind of um or answer that direction or or feel that direction, or maybe that tends to be their personality? How do we how do those folks help uh in that case? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Yeah, that's right. You're right, because everyone is their a unique individual, and there is no one personality type that's predetermined to be uh uh uh an expert educator. Um, all personality types can be profoundly uh impactful educators from the highest of the extroverts down uh like uh across to the introverted people. So and you're really speaking to the heart of the matter of what I do. So yeah, I do present as someone who's very enthusiastic. And I I love this stuff. I'm as I'm enthusiastic about kids, about learning. There has to be that core thing, you know, enthusiasm it has many different flavors, you know, it's expressed in different ways. You have to have that. My former head of school used to say that he only hired people who thought kids are funny. You have to think kids are funny. Like if you if you're like, ugh, like that, it you're maybe in the wrong not like laughing at them, not laughing at them. I see the look on your face first, but like you have to think kids are funny, like kids like crack you up, kids crack you up, sure, you know, stuff like that. So like there has to be like that thing. So the core of it all, when you dig below enthusiasm and the performative side, is about the deep and meaningful human connection, yeah, the deep and meaningful human interaction. Yeah, I'll give you an example. Okay, I was just recently working with an eighth-grade student over the summer. Okay, I'm working with this eighth grade student, and I did something uh that I normally do, that I don't really think about. And then you invited me to your show, to Room to Grow. And then in the time since then, I emailed the student and I asked, Hey, when I did this thing, what did you think? Okay, so here's what I did. When we're working on, we're working on graphing lines, okay? So I gave him an equation of a line, and uh he didn't know how to do it, you know, so that's why we're working on it. And so we plotted some points. We plotted points. If x was five, it turns out y is nine. If x is six, it turns out y is 11, you know, things like that. And we plotted the points and we graphed them. And then, oh, there's the line, great, and then open a new screen. Okay, let me tell you about y equals mx plus b. And then we had this whole uh conversation about the you know, the more formalized graphing equation of a line. So we went through that. And at the end of the session, I said, all right, there's no right or wrong answer to the following question. It's just your opinion. I'm interested to know which way did you like more? Did you like plotting points more when we just asked what x and what y is? Or did you like the formalized um y equals mx plus b form? Yeah. And he thought about it. And he thought. And then he said, I guess I like plotting the points way more. And I was like, okay, yeah, it seemed like that was something that was more manageable, you could understand it more easily, jump right in. It was like, yeah, it made sense that I could plot points, and I I like that method more. So that was in the lesson. Then you invited me to join, and then I was like, I want to ask him what he thought about that. So I emailed him. I'm like, yo, remember when I asked you which way you liked more? It's awesome. Which did you like that I asked you, or is it not a big deal? You know, like I want to give him room. He's eighth grade. Like, I don't give him like it's not a big deal, it's cool, but it wasn't like a monumental thing. And he writes writes back and says, I like that you asked me. Um usually what happens is that when teachers ask and you say which way you like more, they start to do the way that you don't like. Yeah. Do you hear you hear this? Yeah, I do. This is their this this is their experience. And and and and throughout this thread of of the story, there was no Pharaoh costume, there was no like laughter, there was no, there was it was subdued, it was just chill. I was like, I was genuinely interested in knowing which method he liked more for my own sake, and then figuring out how we can uh bolster both a little at a time. And and still he he appreciated, but still thinks that I'm ready. I I've queued up. Okay, so next time I'm gonna hit him with the way he doesn't like.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

He's mine. He just he just revealed his weakness, and I will exploit it.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Um that's their experience, but through it all, he sees that I'm like, I'm I'm trying to understand him, understand his learning. I'm trying to get where he's coming from. A just method. I even say like these are intentional statements. There's no right or wrong answer to this.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

I say that intentionally. You you this is just an opinion, and then not judging it on the other side because other people are like, well, you're gonna have to learn y equals mx plus b one day. You know, you know that, right? Right. You know that mx plus b is like everywhere. I'm doing you a favor, you know. If you learn it, um, so it has to be non-judgmental opinion. So see how it's like it's just about the relationship, it's about getting him.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

For sure, for sure. I think that's so good, so important. Man, you had me on that one.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, and you know, it it makes me reflect on my own kids. Robert, you know, I have two sons and they're all grown up now and moved out. They don't even live in the same state as me anymore. But reflecting back on their schooling experiences and even the teachers that they were the most responsive to. And it's, you know, I'm I'm just hearing so much of the work that you intentionally do. I can reflect back on the interactions with my kids' teachers or even just my kids and their academics in general, and this idea that when they knew the teacher cared about them, that made all the difference in their ability to engage with the content and to learn. And, you know, they didn't always love the course. Um, they didn't always find the academics easy by any means, but that connection to the teacher is just so very, very important. And any teacher with, you know, any any personality or, you know, any way that they present in the classroom, whether they're the I'm service or I'm a scholar or somewhere in between those extremes, um, you know, it can just help kids know that the relationship is what matters the most to them.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah, that's right. It's like every student like requires different things of their teachers that are core level things. Um and uh it like parsing that out, figuring out what it is is important, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, and I think that connects back to your thing earlier about like finding kids funny, right? Like not to the point of laughing at students, but being able to say, yeah, we're all humans and aren't these things funny? And it's funny what motivates us, and it's funny what matters. And you know, it also reminds me of earlier conversations that Curtis and I have had around thinking of our role as investigators, right? It's like it's our job to sort of dig in and investigate each of the students in our classroom and really figure out what works for them in terms of their learning and how to how to best present material or guide them through, or, you know, guide guide on the side them through the mathematical content that will contribute to their learning. But again, the common thread is our humanness and and our connection and our ability to ensure that students know we have their backs, that we really care about them as people and about their learning as well, and in that order and not the other.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

You're right. You're it's right. It's a that human connection. Johnny, I want to go back to a question that you had before about the student obligation. You know, so we're talking about this this teacher obligation at word is important, um, that they have to they have to come they have to show up. Yeah. And it's like, what are some reason reasonable expectations that we have for them? Because they want they want to have expectations that are reasonable. They want to have boundaries that are clear and make sense that apply to everyone. Um, and um I was really affected by uh I don't know whether you love them or hate them, but uh Tony Robbins talks about how people in relationships have to do what they're responsible for to also earn love. You know, you think of like unconditional love from a parent to a child, which sounds good coming out of your mouth. Unconditional love from a parent to a child. But if the kid is acting out being disrespectful and there's no recourse, um they they have to change their ways because like that's inappropriate. That you can't you can't just constantly like, oh, you're so lovely, you're cute when you're angry, you know, something like that. Like forever love, love, love, this endless outpouring of love, because then they're not reflecting on their responsibility and their relationships. Um, and that will re reverberate throughout their lives, right? Right. One time the student was one time the student would come in late all the time, and we had class after lunch. So it was really disruptive. Um, she'd walk into the back of the room, she had that look where like you're holding the backpack with the two thumbs and the straps, so just like walking, kind of strutting around with the two thumbs and the straps, like getting the attention of girlfriends across the room, like, oh my god, did you see the blah blah? And I'm like trying to corral the room. And this happened so frequently, like uh individual dialogues didn't help, saying, like, your participation grade is going to falter. None of this helped. All felt fell on deaf ears, right? And so we had a meeting with me and her and her grade level dean, like her, you know, her the person who's responsible for the behavior of 10th grade. And um, we talked about all these things. We talked about the the participation grade. If you were late three times or more, you're gonna have a lower grade in the class and it's disruptive and this and that. And then finally, I just said what I needed to say. I said, so and so, um, I would never do this to you. I would never, if you're trying to get people's attention at the front of the room and trying to give a speech, can you imagine me doing what you do? And I got up and I acted it out. I while I was like, hey, oh John, what had happened to a hot dog? You had a hot dog? Oh my god, ha ha ha ha ha. Look at the phone. I was like, Can you imagine me doing that to you when you're trying it's your turn to give a speech in the class? Wow. And her face softened, and and she finally exuded what she needed to express a little, which is a little bit of shame. She felt bad. And I think it's the appropriate response. You got it, like she understood what she was doing for the first time. She was just sent off on her own island, like uh acting, acting with with with no bounds, with like unaware that she's just whacking people on the head as she walk walks through the world. And that softened it, and that changed the dynamic. So it's like I demanded that she does something the least level that I would not uh that I would offer her as a rule. They have they have to do their part.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I and and calling that out is you know, you're talking about this this unconditional. I I consider that uh the loving thing that you just did. Because you you have you have now uh aided that student um with behavior with uh interaction for the future. I mean, just in that same place, right? To continue to ignore or or oh, it's okay and love. That's not the loving response. What you did was the loving response. And what you did was the appropriate thing as as teacher to kind of uh bring this up. And so um I I just I want to think um, you know, you've you've given us a ton to think about, honestly, uh Robert. There's time to I'm gonna have to go back and listen to this a couple of times over and go, wow, just the the the nuggets uh are just throughout all of this. Um but I want to I want to see if we can get uh one more just following up on this this idea that kids needing to know that you've got their backs, right? We've been talking about this concept of relationships. And so maybe let's let's wrap up with you giving us maybe just a little bit more on uh how do we go about establishing uh or building those kinds of relationships? What are some of some tips maybe that you have for teachers trying to do that?

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Yeah, I have many queued up. Yeah, because they're it's kind of a way of life, yeah. So I'll tell you a skill that kids have better than us because it's still pure. They have an incredible ability to sniff out hypocrisy. Oh, yeah. They're really good, really good. We accept hypocrisy, so it's kind of like, you know, I don't know what it is. That's just my opinion. I I think that like we're the world is hypocritical, move on, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

I mean, really, yeah, we're jaded.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Coffee's getting cold. Coffee's getting cold, the world's hypocritical. Let's go. Coffee's getting cold. I I need an I need to get an oil change, the world's hypocritical. Let's move on. Um, but to them, this is their world. Teachers are are like what in the top five of their lives, you know, the parents, family, friends, it's right there, like number four, you could say. Yeah, you know, over time, if you get if you do the aggregate of the teacher role.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

And so if, for example, for example, if you if a teacher expects students to make a commitment to turn something in by a certain date, I think it's only fair for the teacher to in turn um make a commitment to when they could be graded.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

And and that, and and and they need to be transparent, you know, to it to uh age of appropriate ways and things like that. Like, hey, you wrote one paper, I have to read 30. So I will need until and then take it seriously. Look at the record, look at your calendar, and it's like I could have it done by the 17th.

unknown 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

And then they register that. So it doesn't matter if it's tomorrow or in two weeks, let's say. It's still a commitment. Right. So it's like that that's what the teach that's how kids are wired. They're like, you expect me to move heaven and earth to turn this thing in today, but then you turn in whatever you want whenever at all times? That's not fair, right? Right? Even if they're even if they're wrong, even if it's like, well, you're a student and that's what students do, but that's not what teachers do. Like, really? Is that what teachers do? So that's one level of hypocrisy, right? It's like even showing up late. I used to be like, I used to live kind of far from school, and I would show up late a lot. It was like devastating. It's devastating because it's hypocritical.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

You know, that was when I I finally moved to closer, but uh, when I was far, I just like it was eight o'clock class, I couldn't do it, couldn't swing it. Um, and so it was it's devastating on the hypocrisy front. Um, you know, conduct in class. Conduct in class. It's like you can't snicker at a question and then expect students to not snicker at a question.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Let's say. Snickering at a question is a capital offense to me. Um, but but just that's just an example. Um and so it like instilling those types of things that that create a seamless I have expectations, you have expectations. I show up for these things, you show up for these things. Am I missing anything? Am I not doing enough? Okay, so we're good. I'm doing enough, so you better do enough.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Balls in your court. Balls in your court now. It's not about me anymore. I love it. You have all the you have all the data you need. Here's all your parameters on the learning management system. This is due by Monday, this is due by Wednesday. Any questions? You have plenty of notice. Perfect. So I'm I got my stuff buttoned up, I got it all set up. Like you don't have to communicate, you don't have to verbalize this, but you have to exude it. All my stuff's aligned. So now your stuff is. I hate it. I hate so much when students sometimes commiserate. Like, we never know what's due.

unknown 30:06

Shh.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

We don't know. We don't know. I don't know when when am I getting this back? It's been so long. Yeah, for sure. They hate it. Oh, yeah. They hate it so much. And it's like, how are you gonna expect to inspire someone who secretly resents you the whole time? Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Well, Robert, this has been a wonderful conversation. I I know there are a ton of resources on your website, and we'll put links to those in the show notes. Uh, I believe all of our listeners have learned so much from just these brief conversations with you, and I know Kurt and I have too, but there's so much more to learn from the resources that you've created. So thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for the, you know, the what you're creating for the world, what you're putting out there to share with all of us to get better at what we really care about, which is student learning. So thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

Thank you both for inviting me. And this has been a wonderful time for me to share this stuff. And it it I speaks from the heart. I s I like to speak from the heart, and I can tell that instantly that that's what you two do. You know, you're your math professionals and your professionals in the in the world of industry, but clearly your heart is where it is visibly where it needs to be. And that's why this conversation went well. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator. See you next time.