SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, I'm Curtis Brown, and I'm a former math educator, and I'm one of the co-hosts of the Room to Grow Math podcast, and we're super excited to have you today.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi, everyone. I'm Joni Fenderberg, longtime math educator, and really excited to welcome you to Room to Grow.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

The conversation today is going to be just fantastic. There's a lot to unpack here.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

When students are doing math, they are making sense. Mathematics makes sense. You change how you experience, so you better experience it. It's going to be a great conversation. So let's get growing.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, Joni, I am really excited. We are recording in the TI office, which is awesome. Yeah. Um, and we uh don't get to do this in person very, very often. No. And we're doing our first like attempt at a at a visual podcast. So we're gonna post this out um as a visual podcast. I'm really excited about that. And like this is the trifecta. We've also got a really fantastic guest today. It really is. I'm super, super excited um for our conversation today. So um why don't you, like we always do, have uh you introduce uh Vanessa and then uh we can get started.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yeah, awesome. Well, I'm also super excited for this new platform. I love that we're in person together. I love that we're in person with our guests, like it just creates the best energy. And um, those listening or watching will be excited to hear that our very special guest today is Vanessa Vicaria. Welcome, Vanessa. Oh my god. I mean, honestly, a real dream come true. It's it is for us too. So we're so excited to have you. So um, just to kind of level set us all, um, you're known in a lot of places as the math guru.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Well, we're getting right into it, are we?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, it was just like tell us a little bit about the math guru. Like, what does that mean for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

How did that come about? Such a great thoughtful question. So let's see. I mean, really, honestly, I am if you know me, you know this part of my story. And if you don't, it's an integral part of my story. I failed grade 11 math twice. I was always told like I there was, you know, I would never be a math person. People like me couldn't do math. I really wanted to just be a rock star and like Mary Keanu Reeves, still my dreams to this day. La la la. Keanu with Keanu, please. But like point them to the video. Yes, point them to the video, but I also don't want a restraining order against me. So it's a really tough balance that I'm constantly, you know, right? Um once I like had my mind changed by this amazing teacher, I ended up doing so well in math. This was like at the end of high school for me, and it really, really changed my perspective on life, on what's possible, on just like the fact that so many of my peers and myself were told that math was only for a select group of people.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

And I started like immediately as soon as I found success in math, I started teaching like anyone who would listen. Like I would bring the entire class. I went to this alternative school. So we were all kids who like got kind of sent to this school because all of our teachers at normal school thought we were dumb. Right. And so this alternative school was such a vibe because the teachers in there knew that that was BS, right? Like they knew we just needed like something different. And so I had all of these peers in my math class that also thought they sucked at math. And we would like go to the local coffee shop after school and we would like do, I would teach them all math. It was, it was a whole thing. And it was really, really cool. And one thing led to the other. Like, I'm not gonna go through my whole life story, but I ended up that that theme of teaching others always stuck with me. And through university, through all the jobs I had, I always tutored. Like, oh, I tutored to make money in university. I tutored to make money while I was doing my teacher's college, I tutored to make money for a trip to India. And it start kind of started out that way, but it grew and grew until I was kind of like, this is what I love doing. I love one-on-one being able to sit with a student and to like really get into their minds, right? Really get into their souls, really help them embody what's going on. Um, and so I I ended up needing a name for what was gonna be a tutoring company. And I'm gonna, I've never actually sat you guys are gonna get an exclusive. I wish I had the visual for this. My first name for my tutoring company was the math doctor. Okay. Now I have little stethoscope. So oh actually, yes. Really? So here's what happened. No, Joni is not wrong. I have a big stethoscope, though, with sequence on it. So here's what it was. My graphic design that I designed because I actually had had a marketing degree. Like I didn't, you know, this was before my teaching degree, I had a marketing degree. My design was like this girl who was in a nurse's outfit, and she did have a stethoscope, but what she actually had was a syringe, and out of the syringe came all these numbers and symbols, like pot, right? I see it. I see it. It's cute, but okay, it was a little like now that I look back on it, like people were kind of like cute, but also like, what is what's going on here? First of all, it's not a doctor, it's clearly a nurse, you know what I mean? And anyways, so once I was the math doctor for a while, but once I like really grew and started hiring others, I was like, you know, doctor isn't quite it. Yeah, right? Like doctor to me, like assumes you're sick, right? And also what we're doing, as this is a bigger scope of that we'll probably get into what we actually do as educators. We're not just like putting band-aids on injury, we're not just like curing, we are doing this something more holistic. And so I rebranded this was after my trip to India, I think. I think I'd gone to India, I'd come back and I'd restarted this and I rebranded as the math guru because I felt like guru was more like, first of all, I'm half Indian, so it's just, you know, it's like in my blood.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

And also, guru to me implies something a lot more holistic. That we're not just dealing with the cognitive, we're dealing with the emotional, we're dealing with something on a so soul level, we're dealing with something in the body, and that's where the name came from. That is that is so cool. And that logo, since nobody asked, but I am gonna tell you, is a girl sitting cross-legged, right, in like meditation pose, and out of her hands are coming those same numbers and symbols that were coming out of the syringe. I like that so much better.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

That is cool. Yeah, yeah. That is really, really cool. What I really like about it, and what I like about what you shared in your story about, especially when you were talking about being a tutor, like that's clearly the math was in your or or teaching was in your blood. Yeah. But you described it as wanting to not impart something on people, not like the image of like, you know, your head is cracked open and the teacher's pouring knowledge in, but drawing something out of people and making connections to people. And I think that is just such a powerful way to think about teaching. Um, and something that often gets lost when we're in the like day-to-day of classroom, and I have to manage my classroom and I have to get through my curriculum, like forgetting that no, this is really about drawing something out of students rather than putting something in. I love that. Yeah, thank you for sharing that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Totally. And I do think it's like a co-creation, right? Like we're co-creating the experience with the learner. So we're learning something from the student that enables us to teach them, and they're learning about us as a teacher, which enables them to learn. And like whether you're in a classroom or you're one-on-one, we're constantly co-creating experience. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think well, and it's interesting because sometimes that experience also isn't always the best.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Positive, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Like sometimes that experience isn't great. And I know you've written a book and I know you've got some experience really talking about and helping students think about this idea of math trauma. That was to me, I mean, I growing up doing the things that I did, I've got an engineering background, an engineering degree, I'm alternate certified for a teacher. So it's kind of I have a very different experience coming in uh to um to math and to teaching and to learning. But sometimes, right, that experience isn't what people have. And this idea of math trauma was new to me. Um, but maybe can you tell us a little bit more about math trauma itself, the idea, and then why that's important to you? Because you the your experience in 11th grade, that's part of it, maybe. But is there more?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Yeah, I think, you know, I'm actually gonna like maybe do something a bit different now because normally I go into like a whole spiel about math trauma and anxiety and math therapy, which is the book I've written and what I do. But I I would actually like anyone who's listening right now who is an educator or who was a student, which is all of us, probably at some point, right? But I want especially edu like, so first of all, for all of us, put on your student hat for a second and think about math class, right? We whether maybe you did not experience this yourself, but you definitely knew people who hated math. Yeah. Who had like a very emotional response to math that they probably didn't have in like geography class. Like maybe they were like, I find geography boring. Maybe they did hate it. So I don't want to paint anything with a wide brush, but we we could we could probably say that more people, um a very large amount of people have an experience in math class where you talk to them about math and they recoil. They say things like, oh my god, I hated it, or I don't want to see that around me, or there's a million Instagram memes and reels being like, I've healed from my math trauma, I don't ever want to see math again, like, you know, or like memories of people being yelled at at the kitchen table over math homework. Like there, there's so much, right? So whether you listening experience that yourself, or you know somebody who talks about a math that way, I just want you to think, isn't it weird that I've never heard more than five people talk about their geography classroom that way? Right. Why is it math? Right. So we do have as a collective and generationally, we have math trauma. And that really, it's really important for us as mathematicians to define our terms. Math trauma is simply put, a negative experience with math that sticks with you long after the experience is over.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Thank you for that clarification.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Right? Like it is important because also, and and we have to like, we're talking about the T word. So it's important to actually just clarify what we're talking about. Right. Most math trauma that was is within our scope as educators to deal with is little T trauma. It is, you know, they are things that may seem benign or they might seem harmful, but we as educators are not only equipped to deal with those things, we are dealing with them. And that's why I want to put on our teacher hat for those listening and say, even though the word math trauma or math therapy might be new to you, what do you do when you teach a student? What are you doing aside from from, you know, talking about content? You're pep talking them. You're saying it's gonna be okay. You are show giving examples. You're saying, hey, let's do this together. You are you are you are actually engaging in therapeutic activity. We just don't call it that. And it doesn't benefit us to not call it that. Right. Because when we are able to say, hey, this is what we're doing, we have an entire field that we can learn from. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Well, and not only that, but we're acknowledging the emotional connection that's underlying what you're talking about, right? Like when we talk about the trauma and the fact that it is very math specific, it's not something we hear people say about other content areas. Like by by giving that reassurance and by saying, no, you're not bad at math, we're addressing that. Like that's a real and legitimate way to feel. The other thing that I just jotted down in my notes while you were talking is the when we talk about people who have that math trauma or that emotional response. And I live very close to this, not personally, but my husband Jeff, very much, very much math trauma, very much grew up believing he was not good at math, not a math person, similar to your story. But his experience and those trauma-inducing experiences were around math class, not around math itself. Like nobody talks about, oh, I hate math in my real life. Oh, I hate looking at data. Well, I hate this is an interesting money in my bank account. But it's it's math class that creates that trauma. So I think there's something really important to unpack there.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yeah. There, sorry for interrupting. No, you're fine. That was very rude of me. Um but I I do think this is actually really important that you brought that up because what's actually happening there is it's interesting how you phrase that. You said nobody feels that way about math in their real life. But here's actually what's happening nobody calls the stuff they're doing in real life math, right? Right. You're right. Like we were like, we label things math. Math when we talk about it refers to the things that were evaluated in our classrooms. Yeah. But if they weren't, then they don't count.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yes. Oh, that's so that's so true. That's such a great point. Because I was about to argue with you on that point, actually, Joni, because I was like, I've heard plenty of people that come up to me and say, I don't like having to solve for x squared. Like, I don't, I don't want to have to deal with this X and Y's, and why do we have all the letters and math is math. Why do we have all this stuff in it? So I've I've had people say those things to me, but those exactly what you said, Vanessa, the idea that those were the things that we were assessed on. Right. Right. It it was the it isn't the finances in our bank account. It isn't the, hey, we're looking at the rate of change of cars down the road, and the people don't hate learning about speed. I mean, it's important to not get tickets, right? Like, so we think about those things. It's how do I get how do I get from here to there? We all have that little that counter now in our cars that start telling us how far we can go on the gas, right? Right. Like that's a math problem. It is math and in life. But nobody complains about that one. They complain about having to multiply and add and subtract and do arithmetic and some of the abstract math concepts that we have to do, that we assess on. Like that's the thing. So I think that's I think that's interesting. I hadn't even thought of like the difference between math class, which is the things that we get assessed on, and life math, which is really maybe the the application, which maybe we're driving towards, right, in math education. Like, hey, we really should be doing more of this life math in our math classes. Um that's an interesting thing. I hadn't even I hadn't even thought about that.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

And like I there's two things there too, where it's like, I don't even think when you're like, nobody minds that math. I would even go above and beyond and say, not only do they not mind it, people like it. People like baking, they like gardening, they like, you know what I mean, driving. They they enjoy it, but it's then then we go to the other side there where we're like, yeah, we're trying to bring more of that stuff into math class. What happens when those things become evaluated? Right. Right. So it's like we there's a catch 22 there of like, I think we us three can say, math is cool, and there are all these cool things we do in math every, you know, with math every single day. Okay, great. We're also not calling those things math. So the people that do those things don't think they're good at math. They think they're good at those things. Right. So there's a uh, you know, a bridge to a gap to bridge there. And then yes, we should bring more of those things in math class because, but once they start getting treated the way other things are taught in math class, are we gonna ruin those things too? It's a negative experience with math. Definitely. Yeah, it's not taken long after it's over.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I I want to come back a little bit because I well, I sort of have a passion about this because of my husband who had this experience. And I, you know, as I've unpacked with him why he has this perception of not being a math person and what that experience was like for him, I can point it back to specific classroom experiences. And when he talks to me about like, oh, when I was in fifth grade and the teacher like showed us how to do a problem, and then we got a worksheet and we had to work on it on our own. And as soon as I looked at a new problem, I didn't know what to do. And he's like, I would spend all this time convincing myself to ask the question. And then the teacher would say something that made me feel stupid, you know, like, and and as he would tell me this, I'm being like, I'm putting myself in the place of the teacher. And I'm like, oh, the teacher was trying to reassure you, but it actually had the opposite effect. The teacher would say, like, oh, that's a really easy one. Or, oh, we just did seven just like that. And so can you talk a little bit about your experience with before you had success? Like, I want you to contrast the teacher experience of like, what did teachers say and do that made you feel I'm not a math person, even if they said that directly. Um, and then what happened with the teacher that you had that helped shift all over the past.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

I love this. Okay. And I also want to say, let's take a minute to call what your husband was saying, right? The stories he's told you. Let's label that. Right. Not that I always love labels, but I think in this circumstance, it's such a good example of there we go. It's a negative experience with math. Definitely. Yeah, it's that took him long after it's over. And we have to remember like our brains, we have evolved with negativity bias. We are going to remember the things that feel scary. Right. So even one really salient negative experience, in order to start healing, we need many positive experiences. So, anyways, just want to say that that's great. This is kind of a perfect example. That is what math trauma can look like. It's an experience that he had. Now, for me, um, my memories of math class before my grade experience are like, I mean, they're they're really honestly out of a Netflix like parody of math teachers. I'm gonna be honest. Like, I picture my teachers being 105 years old and they were just like a protect being talking like like I'm not even kidding though. Like that is, I had I have to tell you guys, oh my God. When I because I actually did my practicum, like my teaching trainee at the school across the street from mine, and the head of the math department was like pick everything you're picturing, plus, okay, plus he used to smoke cigarettes and he would put the butts in his pocket and he would come into class and be like, Oh, my wife hates when I do this, because then I put my pants in the laundry and the, and I was just like, Oh my god, this guy was like ancient, like 200 years old for sure. Like this, and just like telling high school school and just telling us this. Like, do you mean? Like, and when I when I started my practicum there, he said to me, literally verbatim, what's a pretty girl like you doing being a math teacher? Oh my day one of my, you know what I mean? Like just the class, but that's my memory of it all, you know, even though that was a bit later. Um, and it wasn't 1954. Like, do I mean? Like this was the 2000s, guys. Anyways, but my math teachers, that's what I remember. I just kind of remember like very stern standing at the front of the room, giving us the worksheet. Like, I also went to a school where the philosophy was if you're not getting an A, like you're kind of ruining our reputation. Like, do you know what I mean? It was kind of the vibe of the ethos of the whole school. Here's the problem. Yeah, like this is an academic school, like you can't hack it. So that's that's kind of what I remember is I just remember a lot of droning on and on. And I don't also don't want to like sit here blaming my teachers. Like I also didn't like try. I wasn't trying, you know, I was so discouraged. It's not like I like asked them for help and they didn't help me or something. I just remember being so unmotivated and I did not understand what was going on. Contrast to I go to this alternative school, my math teacher. I mean, first of all, there's some things working in her favor. So let's just start with that. The class sizes are half the size, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Which is, as we all know, it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

It's so impactful. Um the tone is very different at this school, right? The tone is hey, we're all here because people don't believe in us out there, and the teachers in here do. So already, like this is one of the biggest things a teacher can do. When a teacher genuinely believes in their students' capacity for math ability, you feel it, right? Like there are probably many parents listening to this. I want you to think about like a child walking. Do you uh, you know, barring any disability, when a kid learns how to walk, the person coaching them at ne never at any point wavers and starts thinking, Johnny might not be a walking person, right? Yeah, you might just not be a walking person. Don't worry about it. And and the kid feels that. So, like, first question for teachers to ask themselves is do you a hundred percent believe that every single child in front of you can improve their relationship and skill set when it comes to math? Because if you don't, they can tell. Yeah. So when I walk into the school, I could tell. Like it's like that that teacher I had, like, she just believed in all of us. And I mean, she was just, by the way, I'm still like besties with her. She's staying at my place right now while I'm here recording the podcast. I love her. It's crazy because you know what the craziest part is where I'm really like I'm acting like Curtis now. Her and her name is Eva. And I'm like, it's like they named the calculator after her. Yeah, right? The new Evo. Like connected. Anyways, Kate, the point, but she was. I remember she would say she would specifically wear dresses and skirts because she hated the stereotype that you know, feminine women couldn't do math. She was just so outgoing. She was like, you know, she was getting us up and doing things on the board. She was, she was just, she knew every single student. She knew she would call our houses with good news on purpose. Like some of us, I'd never, my parents had never had a positive phone call from a teacher. Like it was just the whole, I'm like getting like giddy thinking about it. Cause she really, it was, it was night and day. Yeah. You know, and it was like, and also there was always, I think this is also too where you have to remember that, like, yes, teacher is important, but culture is important. There was a culture in that school of it struggle is expected, right? We were we were all struggling. That's part of learning school. So it's part of learning. So, like, our teachers are never annoyed when we're asking questions or want a different way to learn, they're ready to do it. So I think like there's so much there that and I and I think it's important too, because I think for a lot of teachers, like me included, we're sort of like we want to do everything perfect. Like, you don't want to say the wrong words and you don't want to da-da-da-da. If I look back at it, Eva taught using the algorithm. Like she still explained to us why, but she did not use the algorithm. She, I'm sure she said things like this is gonna be an easy one or a hard one. Like it, like there are little things, but overall, it's like the 80-20 rule. Do you know what I mean? It's like 80% of the things she did were like growth mindset, belief-oriented, emotionally responsive. And that's good enough. That's better than good enough. Right. That's amazing. So, so it's like, don't sweat the small stuff, do what you can. But that ethos of like, I believe that everyone here can do better and I'm gonna figure out what that takes is like that's the starting point.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah. I love that you anchor in that too, because I think when we, if as an educator, if we come in with that experience, then it becomes I'm gonna do whatever it takes to help this student be successful. Right. Instead of like, well, that, you know. It doesn't matter what I do. You know, just being able to acknowledge as an educator that it does matter.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

And you talked about this earlier about teachers being in the student's corner, being their biggest cheerleader.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Well, I'm so glad that we're talking about teacher moves because as we're as we're talking about math trauma, and as you were describing your experience and the disparity between like the two sort of styles of teachers that you have, it makes me think, and you know, I've been in this game for a long time and I've worked with a lot of teachers. And I feel like in math particularly, we either see teachers who are like Curtis and I were, right? Like, oh, I understood math easily. I was a good memorizer. I was good at recognizing pattern. I could produce the right pattern at the right time. So I got a lot of that positive affirmation during my classroom experiences. And that sort of contributed to my decision to become a math teacher. And but there are also math educators who had similar experiences to you of like, oh, I never, I didn't understand that this the traditional way a teacher was teaching. I needed different experiences and different ways of thinking. So it it's I I guess I want to have you talk to us a little bit about why it's important for teachers to have awareness about that because of the different ways those things might play out.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Well, I yeah, I think there's a an awareness of our experience, but there's also I and you talked about this earlier about teachers being in the student's corner, being in their like right behind them, their biggest cheerleader. And this teacher of yours is your biggest cheerleader, right? In terms of of that, uh, of that space. And I I even I remember having a student walk in the door. She was number two in her class. Okay. She'd never struggled really with any math or science or English or any of these things. Now she had hated math all along. Wow. She had hated. She did what she needed to do to make the group. Um, but then she walked into my AP stats classroom. And uh Jisha is it, I don't know if she's listening uh out there, but I just I remember um the way that our class, our conversation, our culture, and I say our because it isn't just me. The students in the room set that culture of learning. Like there's a co-creation of that. The that of this curiosity and of this drive towards learning. She came to me at the end and she said, This is the first time I've ever felt like a math person. This is the first time I've ever wanted to come to math class. Like that, this is the culture and this is the kind of thing. And so thinking about like uh I was I was good at math, but also just that idea of being in their core, like being behind them, like we're cheering them on, right? As teachers, being cognizant of this is a student who I could have very easily just expected. I could have expected everything out of her because she was number two in the class. We were at a school of 4,000 kids. Wow. Like she was she was good, but she hated it until she was in a classroom where the kids, myself, other people coming in and out of the classroom set a culture of like, we're we're gonna be curious about these things, we're gonna ask questions. Failure is an option, like it is a possibility. In fact, it's a good thing we learned from that. Like that concept uh was so huge. So I think just hearing a a little bit more about us as teachers, how do we transform that? How do we help students get into that space? What are the things that we can do? Because you have the the math guru tutoring. You have this one-on-one opportunity with students, and I'm sure that students leave your space transformed.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

That's so nice. They do. Yeah. I know they do. I hope that I know they do. I know that that they do. Um, and I I feel like I'm sure that students leave all of our spaces transformed, you know, not to like deflect, but it's like as educators, you are literally giving them experience that will change their lives. Yeah. You know, that's what we're doing. And that's so cool. And I I think, okay, so wait, let's narrow down the question though.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah, that's fine. What is it exactly? So the question really gonna comes back to your teacher identity and what are the things you do then that that helps students transform their identity as a master.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Because I there's so many places I could go with this. Because we kind of started saying, you know, we have to remember that teachers are coming from different places. And I want to acknowledge that there are not only educators like me that had a bad experience with math and then a good experience with math, and then whatever. There are educators who just had a bad experience with math and are now tasked with teaching math. Right. Right. Many of our elementary educators, absolutely. Many of our middle school educators, you know, like so I it's really important. And some I don't want to leave the high school folks out too, you know, maybe you two. So I it's first of all, you're not alone. This is because by the age of six, 50% of kids, over 50% of kids are given the message that they are not math people. I want you to think about that by the age of six, and the number only grows. So you have just mathematically, there are a ton of teachers that fall into this category and never had enough positive experiences to rewire that negativity bias that was triggered by the negative, right? Like by the bad experiences. So we have to remember that. Now, here's what I always say your own negative experience with math can be your greatest superpower because you have deep, authentic empathy for what a student is going through. So it does not make you a bad teacher. So I want everyone to just get that weight off their shoulders. Like, you know, there's all this stuff out there being like your math and anxiety is contagious. Like, okay, let's just chill, first of all. Like, no, okay. This is this is not how it works. Okay, there, yeah, it's gonna be fine. There are things, whether you're anxious around math or not, if you're gonna walk around saying things like, I hate math, and only some people can do math, well, yeah, that that's gonna trickle down. You know what I mean? Sure. If you have had a negative experience with math and you say things like, I had a bad experience with math, I don't want you guys to have a bad experience with math, or I had a negative experience with math. So I'm pretty nervous up here teaching this in front of you because I remember getting yelled at when I was younger. You know what I mean? Or one of the strongest things we can do is make it clear to our students that even though we had a negative experience with math, we know that it does not define us and mean that there is something intrinsically wrong with us and that we are still working on our relationship every day. That's like modeling, right? So all of these things you can do. And I don't know. I'm kind of thinking, I'm thinking about you guys really made me think about like Eva's teaching style, right? And when you're like, you know, kind of contrasting the two teaching styles. I know that pedagogy and content and curriculum are all important. Sure. But you know, at my tutoring center, we have over 20 tutors. I don't tell any of them how to teach. They are allowed to teach math however they would like. And I hire people on the basis that you are going to get to know your students and how they work best, and you're gonna teach it in a way that they understand. That is, you know what I mean? That is your MO. And the only thing that is like non-negotiable is you're gonna have a math therapy lens, which means you're gonna be emotionally responsive. You're always gonna make them feel good, you're gonna make sure that they have positive experiences. You're you know, like you're gonna make sure that their identity is at the forefront of your pedagogy. That's the only thing. And I say that because I think we've gotten really bogged down with this, like, you know, thinking versus mimicking and the algorithm and you should never do this in this curriculum, that and da da da. And I just feel like I'm not an expert on any of that. But what I am an expert on is the fact that if you put their identity at the forefront of whatever instructional practices you're using, you will always do better. So I just don't want teachers walking, you know, I I know there are educators listening that have probably been told they are teaching the wrong way. Like how they are dare they, you know, do this and that. And I just kind of want to be like, look, this is all we, as you guys said, there is room to grow, right? The first step you should take is putting a student's identity at the forefront. We are teaching students, not math. You know, like that should be your philosophy. And from there, pick up this and that. Maybe you will like a whiteboard, maybe you like a randomized group, maybe you like this algorithm, but not that. Maybe you like people discovering the, I don't know, whatever. But I do want to, you know, to get back to the like, what can teachers do? The best thing you can do is to be authentic, to be sincere, to be empathetic, to honor a student's math identity, to honor each student's unique math identity, to get to know your students and to truly believe that every single one of them can build a healthier relationship with math. You don't need to believe that they can all get an A today. You need to believe that they can all walk out of your classroom feeling, and this is a video, so I can show you, I'm making like a millimeter size with my finger, believing that they can feel this much better about math and their ability to do it. And from there, you will grow and so will they.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yes. I have literal goosebumps when you're saying that. And the reason I think it's that idea of moving along a uh a spectrum of mathematics and the relationship. I love the that you're talking about relationship to math too. Right. We're talking about in improving our relationship with mathematics. I think that's so, I think that's such a cool uh way to think about what we're doing with our students in the classroom. We're not just getting them content, we're also helping them uh with their relationship to this, to this content, right? With the relationship with it. It's not just the mastery of it, because I think often, so often, we get caught up in, we were talking about it earlier. Is it the thing that was assessed? Is it the thing, right? Like this idea of did they are they successful in that assessment? No, I mean, that's important. I don't want to like throw that out. No, it's important. It's important, but there's also this other piece that's important, and that's the relationship with the mathematics. That's the confidence that they have around mathematics, around these these concepts and ideas. And that just, and it isn't also, I love also that you said not every student has to have an A today. Yeah. Like I don't have to believe that every student walking in the classroom gets an A today. I don't think you're to Eva. I don't I'm not sure that she probably thought that either right away. Yeah. It was the idea that she thought that, hey, you're here and I can get you to there today. When you're then from there, I can get you to there today.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

And it's back to where we started, right? That when you were describing your tutoring experiences even before you were formally in the field of education, like drawing out people's own math experiences. Like that's the focus.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

That's and I think I love how you guys are putting this because it's about like just because you're giving me such a visual, it's about movement, right? If we're moving, we're going somewhere. If we're stagnant, we're not going anywhere. Right. No one walks into a gym and it's like I can lift a hundred pounds today. No one would ever train that way. But a trainer wouldn't be like, because you can't lift a hundred pounds today, you're never gonna do it. They'd be like, great, let's pick up the fives, right? Like that's what you do. And I'm thinking about your student that you brought up at the beginning of this, where you were like, she was second in her class and she hated math.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

My master's thesis, I wrote a master's thesis called Imagining a World where Paris Hilton loves math. My favorite thing to do. It was all about the media. It doesn't matter, who cares? My point is the girls I researched for that were my grade 10 students. There was a group of them who were all getting 90s. They were all getting A's. And anytime I would ask them, you know, how they did a question to put a question on the board, do you want to share with the class? They would be like, oh no, I actually have no idea what I'm doing. And I was like, what? So this goes back to mastery does not equal confidence. Just because somebody knows the content, it doesn't mean they they feel they belong in the space or that they're confident. And that's why, what did you just say? It has to be about what the relationship. That's why like the relationship is so important because if we aren't focused on the relationship, we're solving problems at the expense of finding actual solutions. Like, you know, you're just mechanically solving a problem without having any ownership over the fact that you found a solution to a problem in the first place. And that ownership at the end of the day is what builds confidence and what leads to a strong mathematical identity. If there's no ownership over the work you've done, you just like some stuff on a piece of paper. Yeah. Sorry, that was a really gross sound effect.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

No, that's a great. I mean, it but it is what you've done. I mean, it is what you've done. You just kind of lit all over the paper. Like there's and and maybe it was a successful blip, but that's what it was. It was just that. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, it's that's awesome. I I I love that. I I I could just keep going because I'm wearing a shirt that says math is my happy place. And I genuinely, I know, I genuinely want, I genuinely want my students like, and I think most of us teachers, like that's the goal, like thinking about it from that perspective, right? That it isn't necessarily about the mastery, it's about the relationship with it. And I I love that. I love that so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, you when we think about sports too, if you think about this, how many kids play a sport that they're not particularly great at?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

And they love it, they do it for the fun, they do it for the fun, right? They love it.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Yeah, and there's all sorts of reasons. It's like I think that's another myth we have is that you've got to be really good at something to enjoy it. And I don't think that's true, but I think the culture then needs to shift so that being the best at something isn't the priority.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Well, hey, Jolie, we've had it, we've we have had a really good conversation with Vanessa. It has been awesome. Thank you, Vanessa, for hanging out with us. And I've I've learned a lot. There's there's some things I didn't know, like the whole tutoring business side of you. I hadn't I didn't know that part of you. I knew you as a podcaster and a and as like a conference speaker and things. So thank you for sharing that. Um, and all the all of the things that you shared today. It was it was just really it was awesome. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

The centering on relationships, because I think too often um as educators, we hear about our practice, our pedagogy, and our content. And um it's it's so important to remember that really bottom line, it's all about relationships. Yeah.