00;00;01;29 - 00;00;41;19

Joanie intro

In today's episode of Room to Grow, Curtis and I are joined by Aly Martinez from Student Achievement Partners. In our conversation, we learned how Aly's work in the San Diego Unified School District during Covid had her supporting educators in thinking about the math that matters and making informed decisions about what not to teach. When two little time and too much content forces hard choices.

Ali now leads research projects and focus groups designed to help high school educators all over the country think about and focus on the math that students really need for their futures in a world that isn't defined yet. You're going to love this one. So let's get growing.

00;00;41;21 - 00;01;06;01

Curtis

Well, Joanie, I am really excited to be recording again with you today. We have a really awesome, awesome opportunity to have another guest with us today, and I'm super excited about the conversation we get to have. We've done a little bit of pre-conversation here, and I'm super excited about the content for today's session. So will you kick us off and just introduce our guest and get us going?

00;01;06;03 - 00;01;59;266

Joanie

Absolutely. I am so excited for today's guest, and partly because she works at Student Achievement Partners, and they just do absolutely incredible work. And I know many of our listeners are so grateful. So let's start there for thank you for all the great work that's happened and is happening at Student Achievement Partners. But I've also had the opportunity to see this month's guest do some presentations, and I've had some conversations with her and with others on her team at Student Human Partners, and they're just doing remarkable work that is really incredible and relevant for our audience.

So we are really excited to welcome. Ali Martinez is our guest today. So welcome, Ali. So happy to have you. Yay, Ali. We ask our guests as way of introduction, to share a little bit about your professional and life and personal experiences that have brought you to where you are and the work that you're doing now. So why don't you kick us off with that?

00;01;59;27 - 00;02;26;04

Aly

Oh my gosh, sit down. Here we go. I, I'm really proud to currently be the chief Program Officer for math at Student Achievement Partners and have been for the last three years. But I started my career as a high school math teacher a few a few, a few years ago, and one of the things that I think is interesting about my journey to where I am today is I knew when I was 14 years old that I wanted to be a teacher.

00;02;26;04 - 00;02;49;12

Unknown

I remember actually the moment I was like, this feels like a good job. I think I'm going to do this. And from the age of 14, I started collecting little artifacts that I thought would be useful in my future classroom, as it was quite a dream when I finally did become a teacher. I love that I remember finding out a little note I and then there was a picture of a calculator, and then it said math and it was graph paper.

00;02;49;12 - 00;03;10;18

Aly / Curtis / Alyl

And I remember buying that, and maybe I think I was maybe 16 or 17 years old and I took that out when I became a teacher. It was one of those and one of those. 

That is so awesome. I'm jealous. First of all, do you still have that? 

Like, do you have like just totally among friends here? 

I do still have it.

00;03;10;18 - 00;03;30;12

Unknown

I decide and I don't I don't know where I found it, but I remember being that kind of person who I always knew I was going to be a math teacher for whatever reason. And the road has been an interesting one. So I worked as a middle school and high school math teacher and a few different places here in kind of the southwest.

00;03;30;15 - 00;03;55;08

Unknown

And more recently, I was working when I kind of shifted into kind of a coaching role. I worked in an induction role. I think I was lovingly called the Math Mama. So I worked with early career teachers their first two years in math. And then soon after that, I became the math administrator for San Diego Unified School District, about three months before the global pandemic came forward.

00;03;55;10 - 00;04;21;09

Unknown

It was quite a ride, but I think one of the things that makes me interesting, one of the things that I think makes the role that I'm in now, maybe me a armed with a stronger perspective, is that it's been a long road. But also, I knew very early on that I wanted to be a teacher, but also that I actually started my my career or my, my education actually happened in Mexico City.

00;04;21;09 - 00;04;42;01

Unknown

So I, I had had an opportunity to kind of learn in Mexico. I also went to school in the United States, and I also went to school in Canada. So I have a background that is a little different. So it gives me an opportunity to kind of connect with people and understand how they come into the world and know that only they know the story of how they came to where they are.

00;04;42;01 - 00;04;46;24

Aly

So I always appreciate the question. Tell us about yourself because I have some surprises. 

00;04;46;24 - 00;05;16;25

Curtis / Joanie

Yeah, those are really you have a good story there. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about how you went from San Diego Unified at the pandemic to what you're doing now as student achievement partners and even a little bit I know we're we're kind of going to we have some specific things around that we want to talk about today, but give us a little bit more about what else you've worked on as student achievement partners or before you came to whatever the story is, I want to hear a little more connecting of dots from then to now.

00;05;16;25 - 00;09;35;04

Aly

Let's connect these dots. And I think when I, you know, someone who was always preparing to be a teacher from 14 years old, I didn't wake up and go. And some day he had she. Right. I you know that that was not the trajectory was on. But now that I look back, I can see how I arrived at this place. When I was working in San Diego Unified

I think that was really a highlight of my career, because I had spent a lot of time when I was a classroom teacher trying to motivate  change or to do something different in my classroom that I had the data that showed this is going to be successful. This is going to unlock something for my students. And on occasion, I would hit a wall.

There would be a ceiling where because of a policy, because of, you know, this is what's on the test. You know, I was told that that was not the case. And so I found myself kind of shifting from roll to roll, trying to find the place where I could start to impact some of those kind of infrastructure or policy pieces that kind of live in the ether, that impact teachers day to day. And so that's, that's when I became a coach. And then I went into kind of district administration, and that felt like a really important moment because I had an opportunity to talk about something that we'll talk about a little bit more later is about that the math that matters. What is the math that we should be teaching in San Diego Unified?

One of the first things that I jumped into was something called the San Diego Enhanced Math Project. And the question that we were really asking is, if students are going to have these really rich experiences that are augmented by these facilitated discourse moments and inquiry that match relevant math experiences and relevant contexts, if they're turning pages in the textbook they have, and that's the guidance and support they have that that actually can feel really that feels like attention.

I'm trying to teach. I remember buying my planner at the beginning of the school year every year, and kind of marking off which days I could teach and which day is which lessons, when, when to assess. And I, I kept hearing from teachers that if we were going to implement all these changes, they were really looking for guidance about, is there math that we actually can skip?

Right. Is there math that's more important that's worth like let's go deep, let's have an application. Let's let's have kids make a mess and then talk about what the questions are that we can answer because we made a mess. And so we started that work actually three months before the pandemic. And I remember this critical moment. Right. Yeah. Oh gosh I it actually I can I can feel it because I remember March 13th when we closed down classrooms, I remember navigating the close of the school year to the opening of the school year and really asking, how can we support math teachers TK through 12? So t all all math teachers, yeah, how can we support them?

And we had no idea how much time they were going to have to teach. Right. And I remember could you remember that? Oh my gosh it's such a crazy time. Oh my gosh, I have so many really vivid memories and I, I, I remember actually one, one mentor we were talking to who said, you know what, Ellie, I think we should go with the construct that teachers will have two hours a week.

And I remember having a visceral reaction. I was like, you have got to be crazy two hours a week. We could never. 

Joanie

How's anyone going to learn anything in two hours? 

Yeah, this is impossible. So I remember I came around and I thought about it. He said, if we if this is the design challenge we are working with, and we had already started this framework for kind of identifying what math was the most worthy of deep emphasis. Could we actually do this with a two with two hours? What actually would rise to the top and our our our tension? We said something like the guidance that we would share would imply, if you have to make a choice, come to this guidance to make that choice. And if there are things that aren't on this list, of course you could teach them. But if you have to make a hard decision, you can. And one of the wild things that did end up happening as the district did end up giving guidance that our teachers had two hours of math to teach every week. 

00;09;35;04 – 00;10;14;20

Curtis / Joanie

That is wild. That is wild. The timing of that is remarkable that you were already starting that conversation about like, I just think of how far ahead you must have been of so many other places where the pandemic caught us off guard. And it was like, oh, you know, it's March. I have three, four months of school left. I have plenty of time to get through everything I need to. And then in the blink of an eye, literally overnight for a lot of educators like, oh no, I have very little time and need to try and salvage some student learning.

So thank you. Thank you for sharing. That was really interesting and a great lead off into our topic.

End of Segment 1

00;10;14;20 - 00;10;22;03

Music break

Start of Segment 2

00;10;22;23 - 00;11;04;00

Curtis

I love the fact I heard you say, and I, I want to make sure I have the timeline right. But like you were doing this work and teachers were asking you questions even before the pandemic, thinking about what are the math topics that we can that we can do less of in order to provide opportunity for us to have time to do the things?

I just like the fact that you're in a space that you're you're working with a group of people that were thinking in that space, in that way of what are the most prioritized things that I can do and, and maybe what are some of the things I can let go of in order to do those other things better and deeper? I just love that.

00;11;04;00 - 00;11;34;25

Aly 

I credit the the the San Diego Unified had set up a project where we were working deeply side by side with teachers, and that co-design, I credit for us being ahead of this work, and we actually ended up coordinating with Student Achievement Partners and the Council of Greatest Council Great City Schools, who eventually created national guidance about what math to prioritize in the times of Covid. And so anyway, that is my long winded story about how we got to where we are today and why we're still thinking about what is the math that matters. 

00;11;35;05 - 00;13;39;25

Curtis

Well, and I think that's okay. So, so what you just said is exactly where we wanted to go next, which was, you know, okay, so now we're out. Now we are six years removed, five and a half years removed from that experience.

And it feels like we're from the start of that experience anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, so, it feels like we're still I'm going to even maybe insert the word still at a crossroads in mathematics and thinking about where we are in the world right now. There are things happening in technology that are driving, you know, everybody is excited about alternative intelligence or, you know, in that idea of AI. And then this also.

Area where we've started investigating so much data and how do we bring data into the math classroom and thinking about all of that. And then we still have our standardized testing and the tests that are out there. And I've seen a whole bunch of conversation even recently about calls for SAT and Act to begin, you know, being this required thing again in the University of California system.

And so there's still a huge conversation about the math that matters. And so I guess the question that maybe we have, that we'd love to hear your thoughts on our what are some of those exciting opportunities for math educators that are happening right now? And how can we maybe be thinking about those opportunities in this time and space? And I know I threw like 8 million things in here that weren't in the question already, but just our conversation that we've had so far has just made me go, oh, all these things, huge, huge opportunities. 

00;13;30;00 - 00;16;57;24

Aly

I mean, we're definitely at a moment and I feel like I have the benefit with my team to talk to a lot of different people who sit in many different places in the ecosystem and have this conversation.

And our charge in the last year and the half really has been to ask the question, are we kind of seeing the same thing? Do we have this? Do we see the same opportunity, and do we perceive the same challenges, especially in, I would say, like those foundational years of high school math before students go into specialization? It's this question of what do all students need to know to be ready for incredible futures?

All the possibilities, right? And I mean, gosh, you're like pointing to it, Curtis. It's like one question is like the world has changed. And and I mean, we could go at one a colleague that I was actually just on the call with Kate Stevenson, a university professor, hearing fellow California was one of the things that she has, I've heard her say before, is the college and career standards were developed in 2010 for college and career in 2010.

Right, right. One of the things I think is a great example is, is are the college, as we look at the landscape of what the opportunities are for students when they. I just went to a graduation this last week. When those students walk across the platform, are the jobs from 2010 the same jobs that are out there for our graduates today?

My gosh, not right. Not so there is this question of there's not even close. And so I think there's I think there's some things that are true that I think a lot of people agree with, which is there's a lot to teach in high school math. It's a lot, too much, too much. It's unclear what math is worthy of that emphasis.

If there's things that should be assessed at the highest levels, students need to know this with automaticity. Or should they just appreciate that? This is a beautiful thing that happens in mathematics? There's some question about that. And I would say from the folks that we talked to, largely, there's a sense that the Common Core State standards for K-8 kind of got it right, but in high school, it feels like a mixed bag.

Like the grain size isn't right. So there's that. And I also think there's this issue of time that's been an issue. Two or people are really saying, if I have this long list and I don't know what's important, and I have this resource that shows all the things with equal emphasis, how do I, as a single most important actor in a classroom, the teacher, how do I make the call? And I'll go back to Curtis. I can't believe you count it. It feels like it was yesterday. But if you think about the times of Covid, the most common caution I heard from teachers is we. You please tell us. Thank you. I had teachers who cried when we shared the guidance because they said I didn't want to risk making the wrong choice because I knew I had to cut.

And I think that's an extreme example. But I would say teachers make that call all the time, every day, every day. And I I'm hopeful that this momentum that we're hearing kind of echoing from the system, is actually saying we actually have a strong sense about what that math is that we should be going deep with. But we also have a sense that there's some math that maybe it doesn't need as much of an investment or, dare I say, is no longer as useful as other math that we should be thinking about.

00;16;57;25 - 00;18;32;03

Curtis

Yeah, I think that's a I think that's a really interesting point and a deep conversation. You know, topic wise, we could go long, long ways down into that rabbit hole of what are those things? But just acknowledging the fact that I think there are there is a set of really key ideas, really key items that can be honed in on.

And then there's then there's bounds within which we can let students launch from those items into their key interests. Right. Like that's I think that's really the whole goal of a lot of the things that are happening even right now in mathematics. And so just thinking about how do we how do we get to that spot? You guys are doing great work to help us get to that spot of those of those ideas items.

And then when do we do that jump? Because I think that's another question to ask. And it's not on our list of things that I was going to ask you, but just thinking about like, okay, so you mentioned early high school and thinking about here's the items that we're going to try to get into, but then we have to have some time in later high school to go other places.

So when is that the right idea. Like are we making the jump then? Should we make it earlier? Like when's that platform need to be established for? We've taught the essential items and now we can start making choices about places we want to go that are a little more individualized for me student, learner and based on my interest.

00;18;32;05 - 00;23;01;01

Aly

Yeah, this is such a good I think what you're voicing over really names squarely that this is a systems challenge. This isn't something that one actor carries on their shoulders. No, this is an interest segmental. So two different systems, three different systems have to come together into some agreements. And I think even to add a little more complexity because why not make this a little really hard is like there's also things that are part of the system that help it move, like the instructional materials, the tests that are in the space, teacher preparation to to make this type of change. I think you're you're helping illustrate this is going to require a systems movement. And I would say like knowing that this is a podcast with lots of teachers listen to. One of the things that I hope you heard is a part of my my career trajectory is I there are some things that can be solved in the four walls of a classroom and on the campus of a school site, and there are some things that need state and national support.

And right. I have done this at a local level. I did this in a regional level across all of kind of southern, southern San Diego, across different high schools and with our university system. And it was a really exciting time. And I would say that state policy came forward that upended some of the changes that we had hoped to make.

And one of my learnings from that is that in order for this to work, it is both a grassroots effort and something that requires some support, that creates accountability and infrastructure so that the weight of this change doesn't fall onto the shoulders of the people who are already doing the most work. And so I what makes me really proud is that if a systems change comes from answering a problem that people feel in the classroom, then that to me is a signal that this is this is a bidirectional systems change that needs to happen.

I know that's kind of up in my head here, but I think one of the things you're asking is, how do we decide what math all students should experience, and then how do we make the call? And this is and I'm using the royal we because who's in this be and when. How do we make the call of when and if students move into other spaces.

Because this has connections to pathways and systems of it and all these other pieces. And I will say that this first pass of what our kind of research and work that we're doing right now is really about is starting at the first point we're at, we're maybe two steps out from start, and the first thing we're asking is, what is the mathematics that students really should be experiencing?

And a question, something that we have the benefit of that one of the benefits that we are receiving as a part of starting this work now, where we are, because we're at in a moment, as we were actually able to analyze lots of different data. So, for example, states have been revising their standards. States define when that juncture is.

So we looked at that work. That's that's search that we did. So we have a memo. We looked at six states and states that have they require that specialization after algebra and some who don't require algebra. And you could juncture before. So we looked at we actually looked at eight states but our memo share six. And here's some here's some interesting things that we learned.

So one thing that we saw about is there agreement about the math. Here's one thing that all six states removed. Let's see if this brings you some people will feel uncomfortable with and proving the Pythagorean identities that's been removed from all six states and for for the teachers who have taught. And I will say, boy, did I love it when I learned that I enjoyed it so much. But think about from a teacher's perspective, the investment it takes to do that work and the value that maybe it's more relevant in a in a course like a pre-calculus course or calculus course, where it's actually now grounded in the concept. I think answering what math way the first question is what math? And that's what I hope our research is kind of helping us get to. And I'm very excited to continue conversation until it states to help understand where is that juncture and how do we create a bridge so that the systems between high school and post-secondary are talking the same language? And I think you named some of the some of the, the things in the ether right now that show that there's still some rocky waters there.

00;23;01;03 - 00;26;00;14

Joanie / Curtis / Joanie

There definitely is. Oh, it's so interesting. And I know and that's a great topic. Yeah. We're going to need to put a link to that memo that you just mentioned in into the show notes. So our readers can dive a little bit deeper. I know I want to dive into that a little bit more and see what are the other things that are like, no, we have agreement already on what can be let go. And I'm just thinking too, I kind of want to circle back to your comment, Ali, about it being a systems issue, because I think you have I have a similar background to you, and that I spent a lot of time in the classroom and then kind of work my way up in leadership positions and was in a district level position, and then had the opportunity to engage in work at state level and at the national level. And thinking about those systems and where is there you need that flexibility for context for different a school or a district or a state to make their own decisions that are most important and relevant for them. But you also need the bigger structures to be aligned. And, you know, I'm thinking about maybe the most simple thing and might be saying the obvious here, but when we start to identify what the math is, that's most important, we're also identifying what we can let go of. And then hopefully we can use those conversations to redefine the standards. And, you know, to your point, we just revised high school standards here in Colorado. And I had the pleasure of serving on that committee. And making those decisions is not unlike what you talked about your teachers feeling during Covid times, like we were very committed as a committee to cutting stuff like we heard loud and clear and believed in all of our practitioner experience, that there's too much. So we need to get rid of some. But what are the implications of getting rid of this? What is what are the implications of getting rid of proving Pythagorean identities? Like you have to be able to justify that right, to be able to say, well, here's why we're comfortable saying that's okay to eliminate. And certainly knowing there's agreement across the country about that is super important to.

But I want to I want to kind of shift into that thinking around also acknowledging what you said about the standards. The Common Core standards were written for jobs in 2010, where we're feasibly talking about creating content or making decisions about content for students who will graduate in years that we can't predict now. Right, that we can't. We won't know what they're what their job is. 

So I want to talk about the role that maybe the kinds of mathematical thinking, you know, the standards for mathematical practice, like what are the things that are the threads that are going to have longevity regardless of what the content is and how? Or is your team thinking about those like mathematical practices or even like durable skills, communication, collaboration, like these things that are part of classrooms but are not content specific. I'm just curious if you can talk a little bit about how that weaves into your work.

00;26;01;14 - 00;31;19;24

Aly

This is what's really exciting about having conversations like this is that when when we've talked to so many folks across the systems and people start saying the same thing, it it's really helpful to, I would say, hopeful to see that directional movement and what I think makes it feel like there's a momentum here and this idea of, I would say content agnostic competencies like durable skills, critical thinking, adaptability, leadership, those are the types of frameworks that elevate skills that absent of a content area. If students leave from kindergarten or those little four year olds who now come to our schools all the way to when they exit and graduating seniors, if in addition to having grown academic knowledge, they've also grown skills like leadership and adaptability. And they can put those two things together, that is actually a really powerful way for students to be walking towards futures that are really wide open. And I think one of the things that we've been doing that I've found kind of interesting is we looked at state policy documents, and the momentum around portraits of a graduate are durable skills documents. And when we did that exhaustive research, one of the things we found is spoiler alert a lot of people are identifying for their district, for their state. This is the these are the durable skills that we think every graduate should have. Our students should leave, is critical thinking thinker is global citizens and and when they identify those, they come from deep focus groups alongside families and students and employers and community members. And so when people put forward these porches for graduate, they are not just posters.

They represent kind of the opportunities and wishes of the community for the students that graduate from that state. But one of the things that we did and this is this actually, sorry, this is going to take a downturn. So lots of those exists. I think that's a signal of what you were describing, Johnny. We actually looked at the relationship between durable skills documents and mathematics. And that's where things started to get a little sad, actually. Of all the states, only six mentioned mathematics. And I will say we had to. Our definition of connecting to mathematics is very wide. So three of those simply name. You can develop durable skills. And they listed content areas. And one of them was math. And three of them had really in-depth worked out resources. That name that there's opportunity is to build explicitly durable skills in a math setting. So I mean, as folks who have a math classroom background, I think we know because we've seen it firsthand. Absolutely. We sat at a table to watch the student persevere, and you're like, it's happening right now. I just gave myself I remember this. Yes yes, yes. Yeah. Where else do you build? Leadership, adaptability, communication, critical thinking? Where else than a math classroom? It's a perfect playground. So one of the fun things that we did is we cross walked two durable skills frameworks with the standards of mathematical practice. And I won't screen share for you because the font size is so small, but it's worth a peek. One of the things that I think it shows is that there is a clear overlap with critical thinking, which is one of the top ten or top eight skills competencies in those durable skills framework that's come forward. But also, there's quite a lot that's missing stuff about self metacognition, really important and very valued in the field, not something that is explicitly named in the standards of mathematical practice.

But thinking about your thinking pretty mathematical, am I right? Absolutely. Very mathematical. I think there's a world where joining us are we thinking about this? I would say yes. So as we're talking about the what one of the things that's coming forward that we're hearing from different people and I'll name, we held a convening with 30 post-secondary representatives, kind of from national representation, and we asked them the same question what is the math? We should keep, remove and relocate. And I will say is one of the most exciting convening that we've had. People really not many people want to dig into 160 standards in two days. And boy, did they roll up their sleeves. And one of the things that came forward is not just that there's math that they think is worthy of, of emphasis, but there was also a lot of pushing on asking how much and why.

And so if if there's something that we're teaching, what is the driving purpose and lesson and value of that mathematical concept in the course that it's sitting in? And one of the things on the table that a lot of people brought forward is, what are those habits of mine and competencies that aren't developed because there's this overemphasis on how do we cover all the things instead of what are the things that we could develop in people that are those durable skills, that they're not called durable skills because they fade away.

00;31;19;27 - 00;31;20;29

Joanie

Exactly.

End of Segment 2

00;31;21;00 - 00;31;29;18

Music break

Start of Segment 3

00;31;29;01 - 00;33;41;00

Curtis

So it seems to me. And so take this with a grain of salt, because I, I don't have the same experience as the as the two of you. I had a shorter experience in the classroom and then went to kind of the professional learning space for a time before coming to tea. And so my perspective is maybe a little different, but it seems to me, listening to you talk and thinking about this, that is it possible that some of those durable skills and the things that we prioritize in the in the math practices, is it possible that there are avenues to those durable skills and math practices from a variety of math topics? And the reason I asked this question is because I think it's highly likely that there is a an earlier time frame by which we have gotten to the essentials that every student has to have, and that there are certain other topics which each one of them may be able to develop those durable skills. We can use this topic. So we use this mathematical concept or skill, which in and of itself is important. But really, maybe it gives us opportunity to develop those other concrete, durable skills that we're that we're shooting for. So then it gives me freedom, maybe to choose among a set of topics which each one maybe has connections to mathematical ideas in other areas further on. But the point of what I'm trying to drive at is, is it plausible that there's freedom for folks to choose so long as they don't overfill their bucket? Because I think the point we've both been trying, all been trying to make is the buck is too full. But then everybody goes, well, I don't want to let go of this. Well, okay. That's fine. Hold on to that. But you gotta let go of something else.

00;33;41;28 - 00;34;58;00

Aly

I, I think that this is a great example of what one of the things that I appreciate about our organization is that instead of, like you say, Ali says, I mean, I definitely part of my story about Sandy unified is about what Ali says.

But one of the things that is I appreciate about being able to talk about this work is I can call on some of the evidence and research in the field that's pointing us in a direction that, yes, Curtis, we can and many states actually have been trying to tackle this. They're asking the question in many revised state standards.

How can I tell our signal to teachers, spend more time here, spend less time there. But there's also standards like the Minnesota State standards, which have kind of coding symbols on them. And in some of them, there's a coding symbol that says this is a good place for a data science or data literacy concept. They don't say what or how, but they say, you could teach this mathematical idea really well in this context.

And I'll go further today. They also have a symbol that identifies this is a good place to teach an indigenous content, which I think is also like a beautiful way to nod that what you teach and learn in a math classroom isn't just held within kind of the mathematical solar system. It actually can connect to the humans in the room. And the other. Oh, go ahead, go ahead Curtis.

00;34;58;20 - 00;35;18;25

Curtis

Oh, no. I'm just I'm just applauding that because I think there's so much opportunity to do that in so many different spaces all over the place. Right? Like the context, math in context is what sticks anyway. You can quote me on that. I just I mean, that's, that's, that's that's what ends up sticking math in context. It just it has to be.

00;35;16;18 - 00;38;38;24

Aly

We're about to share our, our what we found from our post-secondary convening. And one of the, one of the things that we're going to share is let me see if I can find the title, because I think it's helpful because I speak to what you're talking about, that coherence matters. And one of the things we heard from I would say, again, like this is from teachers who are teaching every day to people who are writing curriculum, to people who write assessments, to people who are state assessment and post-secondary. One of the reflections and rationale we heard a lot is this math doesn't make sense as an individual. Standard math should be taught through a story, a consistent story. And the storylines are these waypoints. They sit both in the Curtis's copy. I was going to say our audience can't see, but Curtis's had just blew up. We just blew his mind. Ali, I what I what feels really good again is like, this is a think of what I'm saying as from a chorus of people across the nation saying, the story of this foundational mathematics has to be grounded in a coherent progression. That makes sense. And by course it has to make sense. And one of the things that I think has come forward that you're kind of bringing, talking about Curtis, is that there is this idea that Todd and when you when we teach mathematical ideas through a connected context or through the natural connections and the progression that sit together, which we know from research and high quality implementation, what that looks like, why that's a win. But when the math expectations are organized in that way, it helps teachers and the people who support teachers make really good decisions about how to help teachers spend their time and how to help students spend their time. And I think for for me, one of the things that's always been tough is when I asked one of my three kids, like, what did you learn today in math? And they're like, I don't know, lines. And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't, I can't be lines. And I recall a time when my kiddos were very young, when I would ask them what they're learning about and they'd say, we're learning about water. And did you know that it evaporates and it goes from a gas to a solid? I don't know, I don't know a lot about science, but I know that anyway. I don't want to say that I don't know the features of matter, but the point is my my children would at length about how they were writing about water, and they wrote about what would happen if, you know, a water creature. And then I said, well, how did you connect that to what did you did you did you measure the the water or, you know, I assume that they would connect in that way. They said, oh, no, we did a worksheet. And the math that we did was a worksheet. So a question or a driving hope that I, I'm hoping, I think answers a problem that a lot of people in the system hope we can kind of find a solution that helps us drive greater purpose, meaning and hope for mathematics in classrooms is that actually when students are learning math, they go, this is really useful. I'm learning something about myself and about the world. Yeah, and there's something that I'm learning about here that connects to other things that I'm learning and that I can use later. And sadly, in most cases in math classrooms at really not much of the fault of like the humans in the classroom, but more of the conditions we're in, right? And that's really hard to do. That's really hard to do.

00;38;38;25 - 00;39;35;26

Curtis / Joanie

And that's really hard to do. That's really hard to do. It is I kind of want to jump in right here, because what you just set up makes me think of one of the tips from the guest that was on our podcast last month, Mahmud Harding from Data Science for everyone, and he talked about one power move for educators to do is just bring data into your lessons, make your lesson about data. And I think that that is a great like low hanging fruit for what you just described. Right? Like if you're bringing data in, that data is going to be anchored in some real world context and provide the scaffolding for understanding and conversation for students. And back to Curtis's power. Quote. Right. Context is what makes it stick. Like that's it's all the same conversation.

So I bring that up because I know part of what you're doing. As soon as human partners to has some data science integration. So can you talk to us a little bit a little bit more about that? 

00;39;35;26 - 00;41;47;20

Aly

100%. So one of the things that we've been navigating is, is there is there a set of mathematics where we have agreement about this is the map that we should be teaching in those foundational years? And a hypothesis is that if there is a smaller set, a focus set that is rigorous, an opportunity to go deep, it might also mean that there is places where we go deep, where it may dive into aspects of mathematics that have not been as emphasized in the past. And anyone who's open a math textbook recently knows that probability statistics is always the last chapter for some reason. The first, I would say the last one and the first one to be skipped. Yeah, I think one of the things that we've been really happy to partner with, data science for everyone, is that they have done an incredible job of stewarding the data science, learning progressions and the competencies that go with those. And an open question is how those competencies and learning progressions fit and can be not.

I wouldn't say adapted, but applied in different disciplines. So in a in a math classroom, in a, in a classroom, a computer science classroom, a science classroom, and a social studies classroom. And there are more and I think the one of the things that I've heard a lot from folks who think about mathematics from a data literacy perspective, is that this work doesn't sit in a single subject area, but rather it's an interdisciplinary opportunity for us to really think about how exposure and experience applying data science and data literacy and different settings actually builds that muscle and really strong ways. And so we are really proud to be partnered with them on actually looking at the data science learning progressions against the hold on. I don't know, we'll have to narrate if Curtis hats blows off here. We're looking at the kindergarten through high school Common Core state standards, and we're asking the question, where are those opportunities for data science competencies to line up and partner with the mathematics standards that are there? And I have to say it is really fun. It is really fun. 

00;41;47;20 - 00;42;59;00

Curtis / Joanie / Curtis

No joke about that. Exciting. And talk about moving the math content up into the year 2026. There's there's the there's the way to do it to make that connection. And it's not about throwing everything else out, right. It's just about making those connections and elevating that work and and framing it for students in that way, I love it.

And to I was. Oh no, it's okay. I just I you had mentioned and Joanie brought it up even the tie back to Mahmud last month. And Mahmud is also many times said something to me talking about. And I think you're even bringing this up just now, just this idea that you teach until you teach the data science you get, and then until you get to a context where you go, we need to learn a little more data. We need to learn a little more data skills. Let's go learn this data skill, because we've gotten to a point where a little more math and and we need to learn a little more math. And that's the that's the tie I was trying to make was, you know, sometimes we can just get into that context and go and let let's just learn. And then when we have a question we don't know how to answer, there's probably math that can help us answer that. Let's go learn that math. And then we can come back and try to answer that question. 

00;42;59;00 - 00;46;37;15

Aly

always. That can help us learn that. Right? I think one of the things that's been really excited about this work is that our perspective really is the I mean, we have we have a tool that we share in student achievement is called the coherence map, which I think pretty much every math teacher knows about. And it's meant to convey how different ideas are connected together, like the the OG progression map. Right. And I think one of the things that we're really interested in reinforcing, because I think sometimes there's a sense that if we talk about data science, it's something else. And I think one of the things we're really testing and, and thinking about is how can we illustrate and find those moments where in digging into a data science, data literacy context with probabilistic thinking or statistical thinking, quantitative thinking, that that type of thinking actually amplifies and reinforces the mathematics of the grade. And I think for a lot of folks, there's this question of, if I teach this, am I going away from the math that I need to teach? And I think especially in K-8, we are really attending to the coherence that you would expect to see in a math classroom. But we're also illustrating what the possibilities are. And I'll share one really simple activity that we did. We we were running data talks in San Diego Unified in kind of the elementary schools. And one of the questions we had is what data is appropriate for that age group? And I, I know my data science program colleagues have a great answer for this. And I want to share another answer, which was we asked students a really simple question what is something in the world that you think is unfair? And it was a simple Google form that had kids fill out. It was a one open field, and I think it was a fourth grade class, and we actually had some operating assumptions about what they might say, but we cleaned their data and organized it into a graphic that matches the mathematics that they're learning. And we had a conversation about what they thought about was not fair. And actually, one of the things that I remember reading that was really interesting to me was access to health care was one of the biggest things that students were talking had named. And I was very surprised by that from a fourth-grade classroom. But it it both helped me understand that. Johnny, you made this point really well, that when you bring especially data from students into a classroom or from their community, I think there's something really special here about reflecting what students think and feel, and helping them use mathematics to think about how they're thinking and feeling, and how exciting it was for the team, for the classroom, to look at this data and go,

oh, some of us agree. How many more of us agree that there was different types of mathematical thinking happening in that space? That came from a really simple question that actually wasn't as daunting as we imagined. So I'm very excited about the eight pieces, and we're working closely with data science for everyone to not just identify where those points are, but also to elevate an example of what it could look like.

Because I think another elephant in this room here is is the preparation and support I have. Chris, you said you have a background in professional learning. There's also this question of is this a new expectation that I have to learn? How will I know what to do? And one of the things we're hoping to illustrate is what might this look like?

So that if you see that there's an opportunity, it sparks something for you where you can take and carry this idea or be inspired to do something similar, you can see how these two ideas reinforce and support each other. So that is also something we're working with the recently busy over here. 

00;46;37;15 - 00;47;13;02

Curtis / Joanie

Yeah, you got a lot going on as soon as you first.

That's awesome. That's awesome. You know Ali, this has been a great conversation and I, I hope I know for me personally, some little seeds have been planted along the way of things that I want to dig deeper into and think about. And I think we've done a nice job of like laying the groundwork and excitement for the work that's coming from SAP. But I also would love to hear, like, what are some of your thoughts about resources that people can dive into right now, and what can they look forward to coming down the road, and any timelines you want to share with us around those things that are coming. 

00;47;13;02 - 00;50;01;14

Aly

I'd love to do, and I appreciate the moment to talk about it.

So we shared a little bit about some of the research that we've been sharing. We're analyzing and collecting data from focus groups, and we want to continue that pipeline of information, sharing that out with people as much as possible, so that people who are making these calls, whether it be in your classroom or in your district or at the state level, we're working with the state even this week. If if you want some of this data so that you can make some informed decisions. As Joni was saying, it's hard to make this call not knowing if this has a ramification one way or another. Allow us to share a little bit of the national trend data that we've seen. We're putting all of that on one initiative page and forget the I'm just you can put the link there, but it's at learn with support for.

Math that dash matters. What do I wish I'd made that page without the dashes? What it is, what it is. Hard hats. Sorry about that. So that's that's one way that you can stay up to speed. And I would say for teachers who are thinking about sometimes, again, I want to reiterate, this isn't a change that we want to kind of sit on the shoulders of teachers, and there is no one more powerful and more important than the teachers in the classroom.

And I think one of the ways that you can really help this movement as you're making these choices is also thinking about why. So we are going to be continuing lots of community engagement and soliciting feedback. And so if you are interested in staying in touch, there's a form there that you can fill out. So we can mail out to you what new things are coming out. When those surveys open, we expect to have a national survey. We would love for families, communities, students, teachers, the widest swath of people to share their input about how they feel. And I think part of that work, which is it's a lot. And I think if I were in the classroom right now and I had just listened to this podcast, I'd be like, what am I supposed to do? I think if anything, I'd want people to leave with the same calm that I saw on the faces of teachers. When we talk to them about it's okay to go deep, it's okay to look at a certain type of mathematics that doesn't feel connected to the other mathematics and say, I'm not going to spend as much time on this, or I'm going to set this aside and make a choice. And I think if you're sitting in a place where you have to make a tough call because there's a performance and a holiday and you have to make a call because you have one less day to teach a lesson that you can, and to make that call based off of what is the math that you see being the most resonant. And if it's helpful and you want to read some of the research, you might be able to make that call even a little more easily by looking at the work that we have.

00;50;01;20 - 00;50;20;09

Curtis / Aly / Curtis 

That's fantastic. Well, thank you for all the resources you shared. And again, circle back to where I started, which is thank you so much to all of you and your team at SAP for the great work that you're doing. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. This has been such a dream, I loved it. Invite me back. Thank you again. We'll have you back for sure. That's a promise by me. Up.

00;50;22;23 - 00;50;40;22

Joanie Outro 

Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator. See you next time!