RTG Episode 9: “Asset Based Teaching and Learning”

Transcription

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:11

Jolie

How are students emotionally falling in love with mathematics because of this routine? The more we are coming from a space of hearing others and coming from a space of starting with what is versus what is not, really allows us to like, bridge those things. And just it just makes a difference. 

00:00:24:11 - 00:01:03:08

Joanie Intro

In this episode, Curtis and I share a great conversation with Jolie Honey and Mike Steele. Jolie and Mike have recently released their book, Transform Your Math Class, using asset based teaching for grades 6-12. And this conversation hit some of the highlights from the book. From gaining a better understanding of what asset based teaching means to considering our language and instructional routines and taking on systems and structures that might be working against student success. This episode is filled with meaningful ideas for math educators. We know you'll love this one, so let's get growing.

00:01:03:10 - 00:01:21:16

Curtis

Well Joanie, I am really, really excited for today and to be recording the Room to Grow podcast yet again with you today. We have a really wonderful opportunity. We've got a couple of guests that we'll introduce here in just a moment. But I'm super excited for the content that we're going to be able to bring today. 

00:01:21:16 - 00:02:16:06

Joanie

I am to Curtis. And, you know, full, full disclosure, I'm especially excited for this episode because our two guests today are people that I have loved and respected in the math ed space for a long time. And so our longtime listeners will know I move into fangirl mode every once in a while, and this is for sure going to be one of those fangirl episodes. So we are so lucky today to have Mike Steele and Jolie Honey joining us. And they have, recently published a new book that we're going to, focus our conversation today on. But let's start with introduction. So our listeners can kind of orient who Mike and Jolie are. And we like to, when we have guests, have them introduce themselves by telling us, obviously who you are and a little bit about your background, but we want to hear what have been your experiences that have led to your current passions in mathematics. So, Mike, can I ask you to start?

00:02:16:12 - 00:04:54:27

Mike

Of course. Thanks so much, and thanks to you both for having us. As Jenny mentioned, my name is Mike Steele. My day job is a professor at Ball State University and a chairperson of the Department of Educational Studies. I started my career to get to the Journey piece as a middle school and high school, mostly mathematics and some science teacher, in a very rural part of the university, the Eastern Shore of Maryland. You may not think of Maryland as rural, but, had about a third of my kids in that early class. You would take off right after the bell rang. Head home, get to the docks, get on their boats and go, harvest oysters and crabs. And honestly, they probably made more than I did doing that. But, you know, starting with that journey, I was the sole person responsible for eighth grade math for a number of years in that position. And it just so happened I got connected to NCTM, actually, pretty quickly, I think it was it was the fall of 97, which is my second year of teaching that there was a regional in Baltimore that the school system was kind enough to send me to. And that just opened my eyes to this fabulous world of professional development. And was both exciting and frustrating at the same time. Exciting. And that I knew there was a ton to learn, and some exciting things to do in my classroom. And frustrating being in a small district with a modest amount of resources, of not having a lot of direct access to high quality professional development. So that first and ETM conference ruined me for the rest of my career. But it also set me on a path where, after some time in the classroom, after some time doing curriculum development, I wanted to know more. I wanted to understand more about teacher learning and teacher knowledge. Which sent me out to doing a PhD in mathematics education at the University of Pittsburgh. Go Panthers. Under the more than capable and fabulous direction of Peg Smith, originator, co-originator of the five practices model. And since then, I've, I've busied myself with, thinking about teacher learning, teacher professional development, what makes effective instructional practice? I certainly do work at the university level of preparing future teachers, and I love doing that. But I'm equally happy hanging out in a district, often for days on end watching teachers working collaboratively with them on improving their practice.

00:04:54:29 - 00:05:07:23

Joanie and Curtis

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that background. Mike and I learned some things about you in that introduction. So thanks. And then Jolie, can you do the same for us? Give us a little bit about your background and how it has led you to your current passions. 

00:05:08:12 - 00:08:39:22

Jolie

Sure, absolutely. I actually learned some things about Mike in that introduction as well. So, very nice. And I'm glad that Mike, first I was thinking about MCA up in some way, South Carolina. So I grew up in a fairly rural area. And for me, education was, really a way of having different experiences and having opportunities. That was how I saw education and furthering my own education. And I loved math. But like after I graduated from college, I came out to Utah, and Utah is where I live now. And my first year of teaching, there was actually a T3 conference in my state, and that's where I had the opportunity to go and meet people from all around. And I'm not going to share what year that was made. That was good. By not sharing what year that was, that, we don't have very many T3 conferences in Utah. So someone really wanted to know. They could probably still look, but it was, it was a great opportunity. I had wonderful mentors. I then became a math specialist for the largest district in the state. And then I got very interested in K-12 education all along the way. Just broadening my understanding of what mathematics education is about and just really enjoying how teachers, no matter what grade level or where they are, are really just so passionate about wanting to make sure our students were successful in math. And it's just very interesting to see how we all have that same goal, but that it can come from different spaces and different places and, just feeling like it's just been a journey, learning that and understanding that I, I've also been an administrator and was the state math specialist for Utah for almost a decade. And in that time, I also really not only was comfortable and familiar with K-12 math education, but also really got to spend a lot of time focusing on our students with disabilities and really being able to spend a lot of time in works, then thinking about how do we support all of our students with disabilities having access to grade level content and, really seeing that they can be successful, you know, and, and that, that when we talked about believing in students and giving them those experiences, that it really makes a difference, which I think kind of comes around to during my time at the state office is also when Mike and I met, when we were both presidents of our respective organizations. I was the president of this Association of State Supervisors of Mathematics when the pandemic happened. And, so and as part of my introduction for myself, I'm also going to share that the love that I had for when we were meeting as presidents and talking about the opportunities that were afforded to us during the pandemic, which was very hard because there were so many things we were so worried about. Right. So, like, it kind of brought us to this conversation about, wow, there's so many things in our system and so many things in our space that can be where we're focusing on what is not working. And look how this pandemic has also really had us have a spotlight and thinking about how things do work and how when we focus on what's possible, we can really make big change.

00:08:39:25 - 00:10:13:02

Joanie

Oh Jolie, I love so much that you shared that way of thinking about the pandemic as a transition into conversation about your book. So, just because it hasn't been mentioned yet, the title of the book that Mike and Jolie have just published is called Transform Your Math Class, using asset-based teaching for grades 6 to 12. And I just think you did a great job right there of talking about shifting to an asset based, approach and an asset-based attitude and certainly that was not an easy thing to do in the midst of the pandemic. So, maybe we could start because I know, you know, Curtis and I had did an episode on asset based teaching a while ago. Maybe two years ago, but certainly well before your book came out. But I know there's not always a common understanding among educators about what we even mean by asset based. So, I wonder if we could start there before we dive into some of the content of the book itself. And just can you guys help us with how you conceptualize this idea of asset-based teaching? They're looking at each other like a nose goes approach. I know, like a wait time. That's all good. I love it. 

00:10:13:02 - 00:11:33:00

Jolie

I'm going to keep it short because I am going to let Mike, add to it. But I think one of the things that we really we're talking about is when we start with what it is, versus like what is not like, so what are the knowledge, what are the experiences? What are the ideas? What are the strategies that people bring to the conversation? And how do we hear or, you know, in other words, not just listen to students or listen to colleagues, but how do we hear what people are saying then and then value their contributions not just for the sake of value them, but actually to make change and to make progress? And, and it's just very it's, it's like much more in my opinion, it comes much more from a loving space. Bugs recognizing and believing in other seeing others is capable. And I think it also does a great job of making it so that students are colleagues. But we feel like we're more of a community, if you will. And, so that's that. That's in a nutshell. I just think that's where it starts. But the power of it, ends up being shifts that happen and everything we do all day long and, just kind of seeing it as a continuum that the more we are coming from a space of hearing others and coming from a space, starting with what is versus what is not really allows us to, like, bridge those things and just it just makes a difference.

00:11:33:02 - 00:12:34:06

Mike

It it see, that's why I want you to go first. Because I love the way you talk about what is, and, and the passion you bring to that. And I think just to layer a little bit on to that, the I, one of the, one of the key ideas that I think we're really hoping to capture in, in the writing that we did around this in what became, this book that I think we're both so immensely proud of, is to to move that from a philosophical stance to an action based stance so we can all say, yes, we want to think about the assets students bring to their to their classrooms. What we can do is as teachers to build on that. Yes, we want to start with what is rather than what is not. And, and that's easy to agree on. And it can be challenging to do and, and doubly so with the different layers of work that we do in the classroom and, and the tides that we sometimes have that push against that as that base perspective.

00:12:34:08 - 00:13:20:00

Joanie

That's great. I, I appreciate that so much. And I think, you know, one of the things that, I really noticed throughout the whole book or that resonated with me as I was reading it, is how many things that I sort of did out of habit without realizing, like, oh wow, that is really a deficit centered approach or a deficit centered message that I'm sending. And none of us, like you said, Mike, nobody would say, I don't want to tap into student assets. Like, of course we do, right? But there are so many structures and systems that, you know, many of us are accustomed to because that's just how things operate, that are actually having a detrimental effect. And we might not even be aware of them. So I think the awareness piece is so very important.

00:13:20:00 - 00:13:31:00

End of Segment 1 – Music break

00:13:31:03 - 00:14:11:04

Joanie

So let's dive into some of the content of the book. And you know, I want to go on and on about kind of some of the structures and the common threads and themes that you all have integrated throughout the whole thing. But, that would make this a half day episode which I don't think many of our listeners have the time for. And I also want to, like, leave them hungry for getting the book and reading it and diving into these ideas themselves, because I think there's so much here, that will resonate with folks. So, within the structure of the book, you've got these three sections. So let's just maybe follow that structure as we discuss it. The first part is about asset-based language, so maybe we can start there. 

00:14:11:06 - 00:17:45:29

Mike

I think this is a place that makes a ton of sense to start. Right. Because I think this is this may the the piece that most classroom teachers have thought the most about, right, right. We, we think we think about the, the terminology we use. We think about the things that students say when we get them started on a task. We think about our moves, as a teacher. And I can have all of that wrapped up and, and embedded in here. So there's some, some some pieces of the section on language where we talk about things like vocabulary, terminology and academic language, which I'll be honest, these, these are terms that I think I used fairly interchangeably, to start with, but really teasing them out and also, and this draws on some, some other work I've done around discourse with colleagues when we think about academic language, rather than, than just vocabulary or terminology, we're able to incorporate, representations. We're able to incorporate gesture, which is someone who talks with my hands is really, really important to me. But also really important to students. Right. We've got students who are doing good mathematical work, doing good mathematical thinking. And if I drop in on a small group that's talking, I may hear, I may hear language like, well, well, about this here. How's that shifting? Like, how's that changing? That's not specific terminology like slope or rate of change, but is inherently mathematical. So thinking about how to really how to acknowledge that as a, as a student asset, how how to, how to look for that, how to elevate that work and be attentive to it. And then to pair that with the academic language and the specific vocabulary terminology that may be a part of our goal. I think that's a really helpful perspective in really thinking about, well, but remember, when we talk about things shifting, we want to talk about slope or and talk about rate of change. That's kind of a little bit of a top down. Like you didn't say the thing I wanted you to say. Let me tell you the thing I wanted you to say, but really starting to build that language up and then making some appropriate tags to that, as, as we go. The other piece I love in the language section, because this helped me think about things I hadn't thought about before, is the idea of our classroom norms, because those norms frame all of those interactions that we have in the classroom. And there are some things that, as we are putting that section of the book together that really gave me pause about my own previous practice, like, I might say something like showing your work is is is an important part of math class or an important part of our thinking and reasoning. That sounds great. Again, don't think it's something anybody would disagree with. But as I think about the range of students in my classroom and that particular phrasing, who is that including? Who is that maybe tacitly excluding or marginalizing in some particular way, five students who are more verbal than they are written? Have I implied something for those students that maybe there's a different way of saying they could be more open and be more inclusive? And so it gave me basis to think about the norms and, and how we write those, and how those frame instruction, like, I want to go back to those as I'm having conversations with students and, and kind of checking in regularly like, are these inclusive for you? Are these giving you opportunities to demonstrate, those mathematical assets that you have?

00:17:46:01 - 00:19:28:02

Jolie

Yeah. And I just want to add and it's in chapter two specifically that makes talking about what, the conversation around discourse in this prior work I learned so much as we were talking about the conversation, and as we're talking about assets and then tying it back to forms of discourse and thinking about how that vocabulary changes. Was just really eye opening for me. And I thought that I had known a lot about discourse, and I have been a big fan of the five practices for a long time. And but just really honing in on that work was this really powerful, made for me in that space in the book and another part of the language that I also really appreciated was the conversation around. That's where we will talk as a group of community, as educators, about the importance of students reasoning and sense making. But we also know that it's like there are these spaces where students are in classrooms and they're kind of like, in fact, Mike, Mike wrote this phrase like, since being hungry for knowing if they've done it right, then what are the unintentional things that we do as teachers that make it so that students think that for me to be good mathematically, that the focus is on the right answer instead of the reasoning and sense making that we talk about as being so important. So there's a lot of a lot of work in that space of language also. That is how does our language impact our reactions of our students and how do we make them hungry for reasoning and sense making? 

00:19:28:02 - 00:21:10:15

Curtis

I love that, and I love also, Mike, that you brought up that it isn't just the words that we say, but as one who talks with his hands and is really we, we all communicate with our entire bodies right when we're communicating to students and when we're when we're in the front of our classrooms or off to the sides as we coach or to interact with groups and, it we communicate so much with our body language and I just, I, I celebrate that that is a portion, of what you're talking about in here. And thinking about the ways that we communicate, and are there unintended things, that communicate that? And, Julie, that whole idea of the students being hungry for knowing if they did it right is such a I just I mean, I connect with that so much when I think about and Joni and I talk about our, our tutoring experiences with our family members, often on the podcast and that just, again, that just brought up, you know, experiences and things that I think about with each of my two sons and the way that they react when I'm helping them with homework, particularly their math homework. And they just want they just want to know who did it. Did I do it the way dad wants me to do it? And we're not even talking just about the right answer, but also even the procedure. Yeah. Did I do it the way that that I was supposed to? And instead of really focusing on, that understanding piece and the, and the whole conversation and that, that, the entire process. So, yeah, that's this is really, really good.

00:21:10:15 - 00:22:18:20

Joanie

I and I think your comment, Kurt, makes me it, it sort of has my brain tying back to what Mike was saying about the norms. Right? Because it's not only like the norms are not only about how do we talk about and include or exclude students, but it also the norms are how we communicate with students about what we value and what we want them to value. And, and when you talk about that kind of thing, like Jolie, like you said, getting them hungry for reasoning and sense making like that, that shifts the culture in the classroom and that shifts students identities about themselves. Like, okay, I might not know what eight times seven is as fast as my classmates do, but I really understand what multiplication is all about, and I can reason from knowing what eight times five is to figure out what eight times seven is. And when we have those norms and we, you know, focus that publicly with students, we are validating the identities of those kids that bring that level of strength that maybe isn't always valued in a traditional kind of classroom setting, so.

00:22:18:20 - 00:23:22:23

Jolie

No, absolutely. And I love that we came back to the norms because whether we realize it or not, we all have norms and it exists. And every interaction that we have, especially when it's an ongoing daily situation. So having some time to really be intentional and co crafting norms with students so that you are all a community of thinking about what is it that we want to accomplish and what, what are we about? It's, it's and not only is it the norms in the book, I think are they are they good examples But I also think that they are examples. And it takes you through a process of really being able to reflect and think about what's my next level like. It's not like what is my perfect norm, but it's like wherever I am on that asset based continuum, how do I take it to the next level so that my students are also feeling honored and valued and that, you know, we're all in this together?

00:23:22:25 - 00:23:55:17

Curtis, Joanie, Curtis 

Thank you. I'm glad you mentioned clickers. Go ahead. Mike. I was I was just I was just going to react to thank you for giving me permission to not be doing it. Perfect. And that that I'm going to be able to to move along the continuum. There's room to grow. I get it was there's room to grow. So thank you, Joni.  I'm sorry, Mike, I didn't mean to cut you out there, but I just wanted to jump in on that.

00:23:56:17 - 00:24:32:15

Mike

You dovetailed perfectly with, I was I was just going to really mark that language of continuum and and the notion that language or routines or systems are not necessarily inherently asset or deficit based, but it's how we use them, how we enact those routines, how our systems are put together. That can be more or less asset based. And yeah, there's definitely room to grow. I found a ton of it for myself just in, in writing, this book with Jillian thinking deeply about some of these ideas.

00:24:32:15 - 00:24:43:14

End of Segment 2 Music break

00:24:43:14 - 00:25:07:15

Joanie

Maybe one of the reasons I enjoyed this book so much is that the, the continuum approach and the like, it's a work in progress, and it's something that we should just be raising our awareness about. And, you know, considering the implications. So, yeah, let's go. Let's shift to the next section of the book, which is about asset based routines. And, Joely, I'll let you kick us off there. 

00:25:07:15 - 00:28:11:05

Jolie

Sounds great. So one of the things that Mike and I both have a lot of experience and have done a lot of work around our instructional routines, but as we were doing instructional routines and having so many times where we are observing classrooms and thinking about our own experiences, we also really talked about structural routines. And so, spending some time and there's a chapter specific to structural routines. And when you talked about Room to Grow and was really thinking about those areas because my, I don't know about listeners out there, but I need to say that for myself, so many of the routines that I did and make daily classroom work, because that was what my mentor shared with me. That's because that's what our team was doing. It's almost like if anyone's ever heard the story about, like, the mom, I always cut off the end of the roast and just did that. So that's what she was doing as an adult. And then when someone asked her why that was the why she did that and she, she's like, well, my mom did it and she asked her mom, and her mom was like, it was because my pants were too short. You know, so, like, so she had to cut it off to make it fit. So, so it's like, what are some of the things that we might be doing in our space just because that's our, you know, we're so busy thinking about so many other things that when it comes to structural routines, like things like warm ups or how we provide instruction daily in our classroom or the homework that we give exit tickets, all, you know, how do we do assessments? Do we do quizzes, you know, what are all those things looking like? Just kind of stopping and having a moment. What is it? What's the purpose of this routine? Like, why do I do warm ups? Is it because it's the way to get, you know, let's and see says that ways to make sure that we are making sure that students are doing their homework is to engage them in discourse, you know, like, is it for us, an assessment for ourselves or, you know, several of those things like, like just kind of asking, what is our purpose? And then also thinking like, how does this particular routine make us think about how are students emotionally falling in love with mathematics because of this routine? But how is it that students are learning to be like, I am a mathematician and I can do this and, yeah, and, and just, just thinking about ways that you can tweak different routines to make it so that students are still having high expectations. We still want to make sure that they're understanding the content that we're teaching them. But also like, are there some things that we do with that? A little bit more like we're punishing, or trying to make it a classroom management situation versus making learning so that it is something that people feel that it's more asset-based and… 

00:28:11:05 - 00:29:06:16

Mike

And kind of as, as you likely heard in the examples that Julie gave, like routines can operate at a number of different levels. You can have ones that are very small, or you can have ones that are less in size or even larger than lesson sized. We, we talked a little bit about, the five practice orchestrating productive discussions. That's one that I feel like is it is is a routine that becomes a set of practices that scaffold your entire lesson. Right. So you can take this at any given level. You can start small, you can look small. You can you can think big. And, and in any of those cases, there's a real entry point for thinking about what you know, what is this routine getting me? How is it leveraging or not leveraging the assets that my students are bringing to the classroom and how could I do it in a different way that maybe leverage those assets in a different way, in a better way. 

00:29:06:18 - 00:30:17:22

Curtis

For sure. Jolie, your comments there just made me think about the last episode that we just did. And thinking about the part two section of our student interviews and the, their comments around homework and the way you brought up, you know, is this routine something that is, I forget how you phrase it. I wish I would have written it down. Something that drives students to fall in love with mathematics as a result of this routine, or is it something that makes it feel like punishment? The, the conversations that we had with those students about homework were just so poignantly tied to what you just what you just commented on. And I think that could probably be something that we evaluate with every one of our routines, right?

00:29:54:20 - 00:30:53:15

Joanie

Yeah, I think that's, that's exactly right. I really like what you just said to Mike about it can be the small things like, how do I begin and end a class, how do I, you know, transition, handing out papers or, you know, how do I return scored work like all of those kinds of things fall into those structural routines. And then there are the bigger, you know, sort of implementation routines that are about how we run our instructional part of our lesson. I guess I'm wondering and and again, back to our comment about the continuum of asset base to deficit. I wonder if you guys could share, a specific routine that might, you know, resonate with people and how you present the opportunity in the book for folks to, place that routine or their personal implementation of it on that continuum. Can you give us, like, a really specific example?                      

00:30:53:15 - 00:33:23:04

Jolie

Yeah. I mean, we do two examples. Yes, absolutely, I love it. Okay. Awesome. Well, I think one of them, is structural routine. And then might if you or I could also routines but that I'll, I'll start with the structural routine and I was actually I'm glad that you asked for a specific example, Joni, because I was thinking I started going down the road of doing lots specific, and then I thought, oh, I want to make sure people are thinking about like that. It's like everything, right? Like there's so many things. And in the book, there are several different examples. Like I said, there's there's examples and specific conversations around homework. And so maybe I'll do homework as a, as an example. And and speaking of the pandemic, I have so many teachers tell me so often that, students post-pandemic are like, it's it's not a common thing that is happening at home. And, and I and I'm thinking to myself, you know, homework as it used to be, where it was, go on and do a bunch of different problems. Even the the best case of homework where it was like, it's not just from last night that we're practicing, but over time and like where we're building fluency from things that we've learned in the past, which I think was, much more asset based than sending someone home with 30 problems. After I just told you what the steps were to do today. I think that was that was more asset based to get prior things as opposed to current in the moment. But I also think, in fact, we talked about this in the book, but also Peter Lilydale brings it up in the building thinking classrooms, that we are really just practicing. And then the practicing. There are lots of ways to do homework, if you will. I'm not calling it homework, but like having students thinking about we're talking about rates of change. Just have them do a quiet write about what are different ways that they see rates of change. And over the next couple of days, pay attention to that in your world and come back and have a conversation and talk to those students about that. 

Love that. 

That's a quick that's a and thinking that's a quick, short example of how can we be thinking about still building student fluency, but also, it's practicing and having it be relevant to their world. 

00:33:23:04 - 00:34:58:04

Mike

And I'll, I'll go from structural to instructional, in, in terms of routines. And so let me draw a little bit on the five practices, you know, anticipating, monitoring, selecting, sequencing and connecting. And, and certainly there's a lot of diversity in ways that you might engineer the work of a task around that. But I would I would think in particular, like if I imagine the selecting the sequencing, that connecting that whole class discussion, like, to what extent is that asset based? Well, if I'm selecting and sequencing student work, right, it's got to be asset based, gotta be based on students work, right? Yes. And think a little bit about who's doing the work, who's doing the talking, what questions are being asked, who has access to ask questions. Curt, you mentioned the front of the room, earlier on in the conversation, too. That really stuck with me. Like, if I'm imagining a whole class discussion around the five practices grounded in student work, who's got access to the front of the room, who has access to gesture at a piece of student work? Is it me? Is the teacher in that protected space? Is it students? Is it a combination of the two who feels like they have standing to ask questions? So even in a in an absolutely lovely iteration of a five practices style lesson, I think there's a lot of room to ask and answer good questions about. To what extent was this asset based? Where can I look to extend or grow that work, to make it even more grounded in the assets that my students are bringing to the table? 

00:34:58:04 - 00:35:53:04

Curtis / Joanie / Curtis

Wow. There's so much reflection going on in my own practice. It's been a little while since I've been in the classroom. Quite a while, actually, since I've been in the classroom, and I'm just thinking back to, wow, how much I want to do better now. I want to go back, do this all the time. Like, right. Just listening to right. I think we all probably do this right, that we recognize there's room to grow for me, too, in every one of these spaces. But in particular, that discussion, that you just, did kind of talking as walking us through, that idea of who has access to the space to point to student work, to talk about student work, to identify things and to comment on those things, who feels like they have access, who does have access. That's wow, so reflective, so much that I want to go back and think about with my own classroom.

00:35:53:04 - 00:36:05:14

Jolie

Hearing the students talk thing and the interviews like, right out of the mouths, out of the mouths of babes who really are right there and just tell you straight up, you know, this is working. This is not working. 

00:36:05:14 - 00:36:34:20

Joanie

Yes. And so much because those conversations are so fresh in our minds, you know, as our previous two episodes, so much of what you're talking about is just so perfectly aligned to what we heard the kids say. So, you know, I just want to throw that in as here's my fangirl moment or another fangirl moment of, like, everything we heard the kids say they want and works for them are the same things that you all are describing. As you know, thinking through the asset base lens. So appreciate that. 

00:36:34:20 - 00:37:07:28

Jolie then Mike

Thank you. I was just going to share I, I, I keep telling people one of these years when I finally I'm able to take a sabbatical like I want to go, I want to go get that eighth grade classroom back, and teach an entire year in eighth grade and record every minute from start to finish of it. Good, bad and ugly. Because it will be a little bit of everything and, and use that to really deepen my own understanding of, of how to use these asset-based perspectives. 

00:37:07:28 - 00:37:09:23

Joanie

Love that, I love that.

00:37:09:23 - 00:37:20:23

End of segment 3 music break

00:37:20:23 - 00:38:28:25

Joanie

Well, to transition is I want to point out that within the book, like there's so much of the content and a lot of what we've talked about. Thus far in this conversation has been very teacher, classroom teacher specific. Right? These are things that a classroom teacher should think about and do. But there is so much, both within the structure of the book and the content of the book, that is also for those who support teachers like or even groups of teachers, you know, plc conversations and, you know, professional learning that might be offered by a department chair or a district level support person or even an administrator. So I really appreciate and value that structure within the book, too, that it's not just it's for sure a powerful tool for classroom teachers, but also a powerful tool for those who support them. And I think this third and final part of the book and our conversation really hones in on those bigger pieces and that broader audience. So let's shift and talk a little bit about asset-based systems.

00:38:28:25 - 00:42:20:24

Mike

I gotta say, this is, both the most exciting and the scariest part of the book to write. In and in part because I think one thing I hear from teachers often is, hey, Mike, what you're asking me to do is great, right? That those sorts of discussions are fabulous, but I've got this state standardized test rate that's coming down, and I'm going to be assessed on that. Or the teacher evaluation process values x, y, and z and not A, B and C that you're that you're talking about. And this is a place where I think sometimes it's hard for teachers to see where they might have agency, to, to make change. And I think certainly some of those big ticket items like large scale assessment, teacher evaluation, tracking systems in middle schools and high schools like those feel big but important to address. But I think one of the things that really helped me understand the variety of leverage points that we might have within our systems, was an interchange I had with, with a colleague of mine, Craig Hearn, who is a math teacher at Oak High School, and y the absolute most insightful, brilliant teachers and smartest person I know and thinking about how teachers learn. Frank was relaying a story at a whole high school as a as a math department. They're just south of Lansing, Michigan. Has for decades done amazing work in focusing on mathematical reasoning, mathematical understanding, supporting seeds, positive mathematical identity development, and pretty just finished a class one day and was walking out into the hallways. Prep period was next is headed somewhere in the building. And see some of the students going into another classroom in another content area. I want to say it was English, but I'm not 100% sure. Don't want to me. I want to make sure I'm not stereotyping my English teaching colleagues. My assuming that that's the case. But he over here is this this teacher and these students in an exchange, where the teacher says something to the effect of, well, yeah, there's math people and not math people. So immediately. Right. Yeah. All those fixed mindset alarms are going off. And of course, Craig's brain and thinking, oh, jeez, that's the week I just worked for an hour and a half with these students on, you know, kind of a growth mindset approach to this. Like that just undid everything I wanted to do. So there was some frustration around that. And to Craig's credit, he quickly realized that the problem was not that teacher, that the problem was him. And here's how he told the story to me, which he said. It made me think, what is the work that I have done or that my department has done or not done in helping the other adults in this building understand what are we trying to do in mathematics at a systemic level? What are we trying to promote in mathematics? Because maybe if I had done that work, that conversation doesn't happen. So it really helped open my eyes to there are multiple leverage points for thinking about transforming systems. And yes, go for those big ticket items. Push on some of those more deficit oriented, assessment ideas that come up, but also think, what are the conversations we're having? As a school, as a faculty in our PLC, that could be more asset based. How do we identify those pieces? How do we productively disrupt deficit based perspectives when they come up? And how do we push for a more asset based perspective? So I think what I hope teachers will see in in the section on systems is that there are so many different entry points and so many leverage points that they have in in moving this conversation forward.

00:42:20:26 - 00:42:27:18

Jolie

Yeah. And so my journey, my journey, Kurt, I think you guys I’m gonna let you respond because I…

00:42:27:18 - 00:44:09:26

Joanie

Yeah I want to jump in here just because I, I so appreciate that. And I think oftentimes, you know, you're making me reflect back to my, like I often felt when I was in the classroom, like I was trying to do things differently. I was trying to create positive change that would help students. And I didn't think about I mean, I thought about my department, right? I thought about the other teachers who saw who taught the same course that I was teaching. Like that made sense to me about getting alignment there, but going beyond and thinking about the school overall or even, you know, I kind of remember for me, when I moved into a leadership position, became a department coordinator, and like the ability to have conversations with the administrators about math and feel like they were actually listening to me and valued me, I just that was a big shift for me, and not something that I felt empowered to do when I was a classroom teacher. Because of that fear of, you know, rocking the boat. But I just the thing you said that I wrote down that I just love is productively disrupt, that this isn't about creating chaos and establishing yourself as I'm right, and everybody else is wrong in this, but really bringing others along in the journey for the benefit of the students, right? Because to your story, if that work had been done across the entire faculty, then the students aren't hearing that. They're they're hearing those productive messages and those asset based messages, even maybe even about the learning of English or becoming better writers or learning social studies. You know, there's impact across the board. So thank you for letting me share that.

00:44:09:28 - 00:44:45:12

Curtis

My one reaction here kind of connects back to something that connects what you said there in the story, back to something that Joe least said early on when we were talking about norms in our classrooms and something I never really thought of, while I was in the classroom. But, thinking about the norms of our school and as a whole, how do we, how can we impact the norms of our school and begin to think about some of the things that can become more, asset base for the system of our school?

00:44:45:15 - 00:50:28:23

Jolie

Yeah. I think if you guys go because I look, all three of us looks just really like. Right? Yes, yes, yes, you got us going, Mike. It makes sense. Indeed. Yeah. And I was thinking about that conversation really just about, the Conference Board of Mathematical Sciences. It's doing this project also that is, and I want to be careful how I call the project because it was it's like the year of math in 2026, and that is all. But then awareness project, if you will. But the way you described what you were sharing with your story is like talk about the impact that would happen if we were all thinking about that, you know, productively disrupting, if you will, the kind of changing the narrative, because math is joyful and beautiful and can be a lot of fun and, yeah, it it resonated and made me want to think I'm actually going to quickly share because I want to share things more at the district state level. But it made me think about the other day when I was watching a program and a person was talking about, well, we need to be careful because this person, is on the spectrum and is also, an engineer. And so they were kind of saying something about this person's personality, but also kind of, you know, indicating that because those things were a situation that that would be, you know, part of why their personality is what it is. And it was interesting because the person doing the interviewing said, well, let's not talk about people who are on the spectrum because the, the that, some are replying that it's like, it, it like in my mind I'm thinking, yeah, we shouldn't be talking about either one of those things. Right. We all have things that we bring to the table. But it was interesting that the call out, which, by the way, did appreciate, I'm just going to say, as a person who very much support students with disabilities, I appreciated the call out regarding the spectrum part. I didn't like that it was over emphasizing that really, the problem is that they're are a mathematician engineer. That's a vast space that that's the part that makes them, you know, the different of you out. With that being said by, that by where Mike was like, Mike was excited and scared. I was excited and excited for the systems part. I, you know, living in the systems world for the past, you know, number of years I just was really we were talking about these different things and these things that were happening. And like I said, it was all kind of right around Covid when we started talking about things that are happening. And, you know, one of the conversations we had is things are not created in with the intention of being deficit based, right? Like policies and practices and rules are not intended to be harmful. But sometimes the way and I say harmful that and if they harmful deficit less asset based the the way that they are translated or because of the way they are being implemented or because, not really sometimes, you know, the policy or practice, not having a full understanding, can make it. So that is actually not as an asset base for students. That's intended. Right. The quote from chapter nine and at the beginning of the is actually from led by Gallo, who happens to be the current Department of Education assistant secretary. Then I'm just going to read this quote because I love it. It's like, how do our current actions demonstrate our commitment, that sense of urgency to improve outcomes and raise expectations? And that quote from her, as the Department of Education Assistant Secretary for Special Education is because she is also such an advocate for how do we ensure that our students with disabilities and those students who are on individual education programs have access to grade level content? And so how are we shifting beliefs and recognizing that our students with disabilities are everyday bit, and that as a capable. Yeah. But able to access that content. But they may need different ways. And I feel like throughout our program we've talked about what that looks like. So when we are out there writing IEP goals, instead of looking at our present levels of academic achievement and function performance is our platform, which is the data that we got to identify, not write our goals. Like instead of thinking about what is it that our students don't know how, instead could we write our goals based on what it is that students do now? And how can we be writing our IEP goals so that it's like we are doing grade level content? But the part that is very individualized is that students have choice in how they're explaining and showing that understand any of that content, and then how can we use their strengths, like their knowledge, their the sense of knowledge they bring the different skills that they have, and the different strap like some, you know, not to get into, like whether the representations are that they enjoy doing things like drawing pictures or that that's they're better to have tables or they're better to model different things. It's like, the thing is, is how are we providing choice for students so that they make sense of the mathematics that they're learning? 

00:50:28:23 - 00:50:28:23

Joanie

I wish I could grab screenshots of Curtis's face as you were talking. Totally. I know so much of what you were saying was resonating. And Curtis, just because you and I get so much conversation separate from the podcast, I know exactly what's what's in your head, but very grateful for that. Systems approach and and especially what you shared about, special populations, those students with disabilities. Great. Great approach. 

00:50:28:23 - 00:51:44:27

Curtis

Yeah, yeah, for sure. As a father of two, with IEPs. Thank you I yeah. Thank you. Goosebumps. All right, I, I do have one follow up final kind of final question. Really, for each of you that I'd like you to think about and, and be able to, to respond to. And that is, if as you're thinking back across this work and the journey that, it took you on and the book itself, what is what is a message, one message, maybe, that each of you has or hope that readers of your book will be able to walk away with, as they read the book and process it. And, Mike, maybe we'll give you the the first chance to talk. 

00:51:44:27 - 00:53:18:14

Mike

Absolutely. I, I would say that asset based perspectives are easy to talk about and agree with. And we really, really deep to enact. There's so many layers. There's, there's so much depth. You can go into it. To me, it's, it's not unlike when NCTM first sets of curricular and instructional standards rolled out, both in 1989 and the revision in 2000, is that people will pick those up and read them and said, yes, yes, this is great. I'm gonna I'm teaching in these standards based way is and the, the range of enactments of that was was substantial. You could go into two teachers said, yes, I'm teaching in ways that are consistent with the NCTM standards in each very different classrooms. And I think the asset base perspectives are very much the same way. And, and there's always room to grow. There are always places to dig in to understand something new about your language, about your routines. Certainly always places you can press on within our educational systems that we can ask and answer good questions about. Are we providing access for students to really showcase the assets that they bring to the classroom, and how can we do that even better the next time around, the next week, the next month, the next year?

00:53:18:17 - 00:53:37:08

Curtis / Joanie / Mike / Jolie joking with each other

I love that. Yeah. Me too. That was like might drop off. Oh, I didn't even mean to make that a pun. That was that was perfect. We, we, we use that part of the house all the time. I bet you do. I never heard that one before. Right. Oh, okay. 

00:53:37:08 - 00:53:37:08

Jolie

I think I'm gonna start myself, but I think that I'm kind of piggybacking on what Mike said in the space. There are a lot of things we have going on in our system. Kind of like we been talking about instruction for a long time. We've been talking about like, how do we focus on the content that matters? And, you know, and I think that like, like we said earlier, it's like teachers care about this job. They care about their students. You know, we love what we do. And, and I'm going to say what I feel is so important about this work is that it is it is something in and of itself, but it also creates that's it's almost like the catalyst for making those other things happen. It is almost like, let's start cause then we'll get something that we're doing and let's reflect on it and talk about what is the purpose, what is currently asset based about it, what is currently deficit based about it, you know, and then like, what did we what can we do to make it better? Mya Angelo has the quote, the idea, the things that you in fact, now that I've mentioned that she has a quote, I'm not I'm going to mess it up, but it's kind of like, you know, we do what we do until we know better, we know better, we do better. And, I'm sure any of us who have talked for more than two weeks can give an example of something where now that we know better, we do better. I'm like, I asset-based perspectives gives you that space to really be thinking about how it might be coming more intentional in my work and what is the purpose of this? You know, I gave the example of the eight goals and things I give for special ed, like it's classroom walkthroughs, like, you know, we're at the classroom for so many minutes. Like, we need to not be like, the teacher should have done this or could have done that, because just like we want to talk about, within our classroom, that we want to focus on what is for students, we want to do the same thing for teachers. And we don't know what you know, but what they did before we were in there or other spaces. So like, really just focusing on how were we going next level then not focusing on what is not like when we're focusing on what is not. It's breaking us down. We're never focusing on what it is. It's building us up. 

00:56:02:08 - 00:56:57:10

Curtis

Yes, there's a podcast that I listen to that uses the, the term focuses fertilizer. That what you focus on grows and so yeah that resonates. Right. Right alongside of that. Well this has been such a good conversation. Really a good time listening to both of you and learning from both of you. I just, I want to thank you again very much. For one, the the work, and the book work that you've done, in getting this out, in front of folks and getting us an opportunity to learn from each of you, but also for taking the time to to sit in chat with, with Joni and I today. I really appreciate that. And this has been so, so good. I look forward to the next time that we get to sit and chat with you. 

00:56:57:10 - 00:57:07:24

Mike

Yes, likewise. This has been so much fun and and and thank you for giving us the time and space to talk about this work. We're we're so excited to have it out in the world.

00:57:07:24 - 00:57:14:16

Jolie

Jenny and Curt, thank you so much for the work that you do. And, and we appreciate you.

00:57:17:13 - 00:57:35:11

Joanie

Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator.

See you next time!