00:00:00:00 - 00:00:41:19

Joanie

This episode is a new format that Curtis and I are so excited to share with you. Over the summer, we had three conversations with six different students asking them to share their perspectives on learning math. There was so much great content in these conversations that we're going to share with you over two back to school episodes. Today's episode has our students talking about what kinds of things teachers do, or sometimes don't do in the math classroom that supports their learning. And unsurprisingly, it wasn't the same for everyone. And although we didn't ask them directly, they all shared examples of how teachers have impacted their own beliefs about their math abilities. So let's get growing. 

00:00:41:19 - 00:01:13:20

Curtis

Well, Joanie, I'm really excited for today. We have a great opportunity to look at sort of visiting with students. And I don't know if you want to take a moment to kind of set up our conversations and what we had, over the past couple of months, we've had some opportunity to visit with several students and I figured today was the day to record our conversation about our conversations with those students.

00:01:14:02 - 00:02:29:20

Joanie 

 Yeah. So I am so excited for this podcast episode to come together. Curtis, we've been talking about this for a long time. really getting down and dirty with some actual kids to talk about their experience in math class. So for this month, we're piecing together voices from six students that we interviewed and they range from about seventh grade through seniors in high school. We interviewed them, over the summer. So in June and July, we asked them each to introduce themselves as in terms of what, grade they'll be in this current school year. and we just wanted to get a general understanding of their experiences learning math. And, you know, what are what are teachers doing that help them? And, I'm really excited for us to piece together some of the highlights of what they shared with us. It was just an absolute pleasure to spend an hour with each of these groups of kids. So, yeah, let's  go ahead and let the kids introduce themselves. We had a couple of different we did three different recording sessions with two kids in each session. And we asked them to share either their favorite thing about math or something about themselves outside of math class. So as we hear them introduce themselves, we'll hear those different responses.

00:02:30:02 - 00:02:40:20

 I'm Hannah, I'm an eighth grader on Arbor Creek and probably my fifth grade math teacher he last time I really enjoyed learning math

00:02:40:20 - 00:02:52:06

My name is Andrew. I'm in eighth grade and I don't have any favorites. But one thing I like about math is that you always have to do something to get an answer. 

00:02:52:17 - 00:03:02:10

My name is Ria, I'm in ninth grade and I go to Clark, and I actually also have a podcast called Ria's Ramblings, which can be listened to on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or any other platform.

00:03:02:20 - 00:03:12:17

Hi, my name is Whit. I go to Peirce High School and I'm in 10th grade. One of my favorite hobbies is golf. I love golfing every single day. 

00:03:12:20 - 00:03:20:17

My name is Riley. I'm going to be a junior at Chaparral High School. And my favorite thing about math is that there's always a definite answer. 

00:03:21:10 - 00:03:56:25

Well, my name is Naomi. I am a freshman at Texas A&M University, and I think one of the most amusing stories I have is math is, whenever I'm stuck on a piece of homework, I'll go over to my mom and just start talking and then suddenly realize the answer. So I was taking a test and I couldn't figure out an answer, and I was like, okay, imagine there's like a mini mom on your shoulder, have a talk with her in your head and I, and then I had my Aha, and so we just talk that she's, you know, with me in the class helping me out with answers. 

00:03:57:25 - 00:04:55:20 

Curtis

Well, now that the kids have had a chance to introduce themselves, I wanted to kind of give us an idea of how we're going to structure this conversation. So we had several we had a laundry list of questions that we use to kind of guide the conversations and we really followed the student responses with, you know, questions to dig in a little bit deeper into each of these, ideas. But as we were listening back to the clips, we found that they followed some general themes. And so our first theme that we're going to kind of listen to the student responses around was, what are some of the things that your math teachers have done or, do that either help your learning or perhaps maybe put it put up some roadblocks to learning just based upon implementing in the classroom. So let's hear from some of our students and the direction that they took that question for themselves.

00:04:56:20 - 00:05:07:17

Andrew

Something that I like about my last year teacher was that whenever you ask them a question, they would explain it in front of the whole class. In case anyone else in the class had that same question. 

00:05:07:20 - 00:05:32:24

Rylie

So I'm a very like organized person. I try to keep structure in my notes and all my papers and kind of have a good amount of material to, like, look back on. But one thing I've learned is being able to just talk it out. And I think being able to look at a lesson and not only apply it, but just like look around at your peers and be like, how did you figure this out?

00:05:32:26 - 00:05:47:15

Riya

I learned math best when I'm working with a friend who understands a topic better than me, so that they can explain it to me in a way that I'll understand. because the teacher sometimes doesn't get like the way that kids understand. So when someone my age helps me, then it just helps me understand better. 

00:05:47:25 - 00:06:22:10

Naomi 

You get more in-depth thinking when you try to explain something, because you have to actually formulate the words you take more time to think of. How would you say this to a person? So when I was in elementary, we had something called speaker phones where you would take like plumbing pipe, and you would whisper in one end and it would curve up to your ear. So you could hear yourself, but nobody else could be able to to speak. And if I can't speak, write down my thoughts. That's a way for me to kind of I think of it as like the answer is hiding within paper, and I just have to unfold the layers. That's how I see it in my head.

00:06:22:23 - 00:06:57:03

Witt

For me, it's, it's always been more helpful whenever a teacher is explaining, like an example. So like, not whenever we're reading. Like, reading is very hard to make connections to, like what we're actually supposed to be learning. But if a teacher's explaining their thought process during and like with an example, it's a lot easier to make connections like this is what we're supposed to be doing at this part of the equation, or like at, after you transfer to the other side, like you have to do this. So it's a lot easier for me whenever there's like an example that I can make connections between. 

00:06:57:20 - 00:07:18:07

Curtis & Joanie

You know what's really cool is our minds both go to procedural. What he kind of finished in the middle there. Yeah. But I heard it different this time. This person. Little part. Yeah. This first little part. What we're supposed to be learning. I think that's the connection part. 

00:07:18:07 - 00:07:34:07

Joanie

Exactly. And they're explaining their thought process and they're making it clear what we're supposed to be learning. Like, that's such an argument for why a teacher is always going to be better than AI and why a teacher is always going to be better than just kids sitting in front of a computer screen and learning independently.

00:07:34:07 - 00:08:08:19

Curtis

Right. And I think it's I think it's also an argument. This is, this is where the confusion and the like, we're all we all have the same goal. And the people who argue direct instruction stuff are saying, well, this, this what we just said and the people who are say are arguing the more, kind of student discovery are saying this, this, this is what what Witt just said is like at the crux.

00:08:08:21 - 00:08:50:23

Joanie

I agree with you. I think it's so great because I think what we what we just heard is, you know, and we heard Riley and Riya talking about how important it is to be able to talk during class and talk with their friends. But Andrew and Whit both gave us how important the role of the teacher is to. And so it's not just about always giving kids learning experiences where they're talking with each other and figuring something out. But also that explicit explanation and making clear what they're supposed to be learning. I love how it said that. And, and when the teacher shares that the thought process. It was so good. 

00:08:51:23 - 00:09:20:23

Hannah

I feel like a lot of us learn a lot more hands on and stuff like the classes I like, especially last year, I most enjoyed for core classes, Ela and science because science, even if it wasn't the most entertaining topic or whatnot, he still tried to do stuff that would be fun to do and we were able to work at, and it was mostly self-guided so he could work at our own pace.

00:09:21:24 - 00:09:45:18

Riya

This past year, my teacher used a lot of citations, so she would have papers around the room, and then you would have a worksheet and you just have to it's like almost it's fun because you get to walk around the room because you've been sitting all day, and you get to also be with your friends and do the math problems together. Another way is hands on stuff like building blocks, hands on calculators and stuff because that keeps students engaged in like using items instead of just writing on a paper.

00:09:35:11 - 00:10:05:15

Curtis

I like the thought of the usefulness of manipulatives beyond just the, demonstration. I know when I was thinking about, like, manipulatives and trying to do things, I was purely thinking about the connection to mathematics.

00:10:05:15 - 00:10:36:14

Curtis & Joanie

And yet she's got another, another usefulness in the classroom management piece of the puzzle of keeping students engaged with math. Right. It's motivation. It's a little motivating to be using something extra besides paper and pencil. Yeah. And and I also heard her say, like at the end where she said, it just gives you something to do that isn't just writing on paper like that, not wanting the same thing over and over again adds to enjoying enjoyment. I like that. I like that statement a lot.

00:10:36:14 - 00:10:47:05

Music break

End of segment 1

00:10:47:07 - 00:11:12:17

Joanie

As we were talking to kids about what, what teachers did and didn't do that helped them learn, we asked them about sense making a lot, so it was interesting to hear them describing what it felt like when math made sense. 

00:11:05:19 - 00:11:31:19

Andrew 

They’re just like, use this formula. And I'm like, yeah, but when am I going to use this in real life? Because one thing in math that I sort of need to understand or use anything is understanding how and why the math works, and when I understand how and why the math works, I can incorporate that into the real world, and therefore it has use to me. 

00:11:31:19 - 00:11:51:15

Riya

So one of the things I love about math class is learning. Like when a thing like finally clicks and the topic finally makes sense, it almost becomes a little fun, especially algebra this last year. Like when it just makes sense and you're flying through the problems. It's like you feel smart and you just feel like you actually understood something, especially when it's been confusing for the last couple days.

00:11:52:10 - 00:13:27:02

Curtis (Joanie occasionally  says yes throughout)

What she just said to all the naysayers about the necessity of struggle. Yeah, this is it. Yeah. This is why, like, this is why we care that students struggle. And I'm not saying that we don't want that. We want students to just be, crying in math class. That's not what I mean when I say struggle, because that's what happened. That's why we had the clips from Andrew, from Andrew. That's right. This is why, like if it was just easy and it just flowed and I just executed what I was told and I and it was all processing and we were just robotically doing things. There's no and no, there's no emotional connection. There's no accomplishment since there's no any of that. And what what Ria just said was, was confirmation of why we care that students go through a process of struggling and trying something hard for a few days, and then it finally clicked. There's an emotional high that I think then ties it back to something that's memorable. And it's not just it clicked for today, but it clicks for a long period of time because I had the emotional cry of having that success. Yep.

00:13:27:17  - 00:13:38:02

Music break

End of segment 2

00:13:38:26 - 00:13:52:02

Joanie

Throughout the conversations, these students were really honest about how they felt about math and the situations that supported positive math identities, as well as those that made them feel unsure about math. These are really powerful. Let's listen.

00:13:52:02 - 00:14:41:11

Andrew

It started in first grade when my teacher, at the end of the day, would have us do a math equation and whoever got it fastest would be proclaimed as better than everyone and get a toy. I never got the toy and I thought it was because I was bad at math, so I talked to my parents about it. My parents were like, wait, whoever got it fastest? And then they told me, math isn't about speed. And I got more confident to myself. And then that led me to go to the the problem is not me. A lot of great mathematicians took months or weeks doing their famous equations in math, and speed did not go together in my opinion. 

00:14:41:06 - 00:15:07:27

Naomi

I think the biggest thing that, that was frustrating for me when I was having my hardship was with math. Oh, well, I'm not good enough for him. And I was doing my best. and then I think when I had my my hardships with math, I really got to thank my parents. Just having someone there to be like, you might not get it now, but you will. That was very good.

00:15:08:00 - 00:15:31:02

Hannah

A teacher can make or break a class, and I probably need to be able to connect with them because like a couple of my very favorite teachers over the years, they give us freedom. They let us talk, they let us. They've let us have fun and like, they treat us very much like we're human beings. And that's something that I've enjoyed being able to connect with them. 

00:15:31:19 - 00:15:43:07

Rylie

I think another a part of that is, some days are easier than others, you know, and especially in a learning environment. And so and some learning is easier for others and it's harder for others. And so being able to make I think everyone feel like they're on the same level to learn and not expected that you should know things or that you shouldn't know things or this is the way to do it, and this is why you can't do it, right. but making everybody feel like they, you know, have a place at that table and they have good questions and they have good ideas. And even if they, you know, don't necessarily fit this like picture perfect picture of what we're sometimes taught math should be, but that there's other ways to look at the same problem.

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:25:23

Witt

Mak ing sense of the math could be understood as branching off of a subject, or branching between the subjects you're learning. 

00:16:26:15 - 00:16:25:23

Andrew

talking and explaining the math too fast for my brain to process it because sometimes my math teacher guide insanely fast with their explaining and everyone else, everyone else is like, okay. And I'm like, what they just say. And a lot of the other students were very fast in their work, and I've learned that I need time to learn. I need time to process the information that is being given to me, and I need the information to be given to me slowly and gradually so that I understand the full thing. And it also helps for me to slow down when I'm doing work.

00:17:20:22 - 00:21:53:21

Curtis & Joanie

Wow…uhm. I'm so proud of him. I so appreciate my bias is showing, but, I don't know if we can play this, but how old is Andrew? Andrew is 14. To have, I'm okay. Let me let me react this way. because there's lots of reactions I could have there. And all of them are positive. But I think this particular like to have the self-awareness at 14 to be able to say. Hold on. I need time to process. I need the information in slow, gradual steps and then I need time to work. I need to not have to work fast. To have the self-awareness to realize that that's what you need to be productive. And I, and I hope nobody ever excuses laziness this way because I think there's a there's a difference, right? Yeah, yeah. He's putting effort into doing this. He's being aware of I need time to do this and I need to work a little bit slower. Like that's not laziness. That's that's taking time. It's not even an excuse for him. It's, it's, I. Wally, I know I can learn. I just need to learn like this. This. Like he's had enough negative experiences and some positive experiences that have helped him say, I know things don't work out for me. When the teacher gives information too quickly, or when I have to complete my work too quickly, I don't show my best work. But I know I can learn and I can understand when it's given to me slowly and gradually, and when I take my time and slow myself down like that has been. And again, I I'm close to this. I'm his. And so I have seen the, you know, hitting the wall and the frustration and the tears and then the oh, wait, I'm not bad at this. I just need a different thing that I'm getting. And I can ask for that. I just, I. So on, on the one hand, my heart hurts that he's gone through the experience that he went through to have the negative identity that he had. On the other hand, I'm so thankful that he's had the opportunity to work with you.

And on the the next hand, if I can have a third one, or fourth or however many I'm up to, I am taken aback at his maturity. Yeah. To think through. And I know you've played a part in that, to think through how he thinks. Yeah, and how he needs to learn and how he needs to take time to process. And, you know, we heard it from others in our conversations and we've played some clips that maybe have hinted at this, that, other students are, are different. They, they learn differently. They, they process more quickly or they, you know, they relate to a more concrete example or so it's it's cool to hear the diversity of thought. I'm just so taken aback. And I know I'm not probably supposed to just have this praise Andrew thing going on here, but I'm just I want to I hopefully Andrew, if you ever get a chance to hear this, I am taken aback by that little clip I just heard because, I'm just so impressed at the thought process you put into how you think and how you learn. And I think I can say that to every one of the students that we had a chance to interview, that each one of them had a chance. They really think about how they learn. And that's a big time, mature, mature thing. Well said Curt. 

00:21:55:21 - 00:22:01:01

Joanie

Stay tuned for more of these student conversations in next month's episode of Room to Grow.

00:22:01:01 - 00:22:07:10

Closing music