SPEAKER_00 0:00

If I start by us making the assumption that every student that's going to be able to that's going to walk in the door of my mathematics classroom, um, if I make that assumption as they walk in the door, I'm much more willing to have a bigger and much more open door uh for the classes that I'm teaching.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Welcome to Room to Grow. I'm Curtis Brown. And I'm Joni Funderberg. We work together at Texas Instruments, and we're glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

We're looking forward to continually improving our practice, and we understand that you are too.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

We hope that you'll find this podcast as a room for you to grow along with us as we wrestle with and explore ideas about teaching math even better. In this episode, Curtis and I explore ideas around teaching and learning math from an asset-based perspective. We discuss the importance of believing in, recognizing, and leveraging the mathematical strengths that each and every student brings to the math classroom. We also talk about school systems that may work against this approach and how to ensure assessment and grading practices can be asset-based. This conversation barely scratches the surface of this important idea, but we think you'll find some good nuggets to consider for your own practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

So let's get growing. All right, Joni. I am so excited that we are recording again today. Um, it has really been a cool progression, um, progression uh for us to get going in this podcast. We've been doing this for a couple of seasons now. I'm really excited about that. We are in the middle of beginning uh our third season uh recording episodes um going forward. And I am really happy to be talking about what we're gonna be talking about today, which is asset-based uh assessment, really asset-based learning and teaching. I think that's one of the things that we kind of, as we started talking about this uh through our preparation, we thought that, man, this topic is bigger than just the assessment. Yeah. Uh, and so I think it's worth expanding that to talking about our teaching and learning.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, I agree. I I'm really excited about this conversation because this is, I think this is a fairly new idea. Like talking about asset-based teaching and learning is not something that um was really prevalent, especially in my early days in the classroom. We we just didn't think about and talk about this. And there's so there's a lot of power in these ideas that are are getting some traction across the mathematical education space right now. And um, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think one of the fun things about us being into season three is really our the opportunities that we've had to grow. Like really, you know, our our intent with the Room to Grow podcast was, you know, to be a part of the learning and growing of our educator listeners. And um it's it's really exciting to have this regular monthly opportunity for you and I personally to grow in our understanding and thinking around uh math instruction. And really this topic, too, is one of those that makes me, you know, yearn to go back to the classroom and apply some of the ideas here and think about wow, I would have been such a better teacher if I had known this um 30 years ago when I started teaching. So yeah, so this idea of asset-based teaching and learning, um, Curtis, why don't we start off by just sharing maybe some definitions and some concepts around what it is we're talking about? Um, you know, I'm sure this, like I said, this is kind of a popular topic right now. So I'm sure this is raising some ideas for our listeners, but let's be clear about what we're thinking about. So as we proceed through the conversation, we have something to anchor it in.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, I think that's worth uh worth doing. So I think it's a multifaceted uh idea, right? There's many different um, I'll call them faces. Um, I'm thinking of a of a polygon right now. Uh you are.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Are you thinking of a polyhedron? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Well, let's be, yeah, a polyhedron. Let's let's be very technical about this. But that's what's I'm seeing in my head as I'm thinking about how we describe this. Um, but really, the there's two pieces that that kind of jump out at me that maybe are the first and most accessible pieces uh of this idea. And that is that every student has something that they're good at. Um, every student brings things to the table that are assets, and we can think about them as assets. We can think about them as strengths of the student, thinking about their their language, their culture, maybe the way that their um their group um serves uh as an intellectual resource for my classroom. Like there is an opportunity for the way that the students think um that might be different from the way that I think or from other students in the classroom, uh, that that is a big asset to the classroom, right? So students have things that they're good at, maybe they're hobbies, maybe they're outside interests, but all of those pieces are pieces that make the students who they are. And those are assets and ways that we can kind of engage with and dive into uh that student. Secondly, I would follow that with uh an opinion and a belief that every student has the ability to learn. They can take that set of um assets that we've described, all of their background, all the things that they bring to the table, which are pieces and parts of who they are, and they can apply those uh to learn. Every student has the ability to learn mathematics in it at a high level. They can do, they can learn mathematics. And I think that's the important uh pieces, those two are the important pieces of the puzzle that I wanted to bring, uh, at least at first, yeah when we started talking about this definition.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

I really like that. And I think you've hit on some of the really important components of that. I I would just add my my definition isn't drastically different than yours, but I just want to add a couple of points of nuance. And one is that um, you know, as you said, every student brings assets to the learning experience. Um, and I just want to add like the the technicality there that they don't have to prove that they have those, that they come in just uh like it's an assumption that that already exists rather than well, let's find out if the student brings assets to their learning. Like, no, they definitely do. Um, and and kind of related and connected to that is the teacher's attitude about the value of what all students bring. And and, you know, I'm thinking how tightly this connects to many of the previous conversations that we've had where we're we're actually challenging the past notions from decades ago of what it means to be successful in mathematics, what it means to be um, you know, a mathematics student, uh, a mathematics learner or successful um mathematician and redefining what that is. It's not limited to um, you know, being fast and accurate uh as an example, right? Like you're you're only good at math if you can be fast and get the right answers all the time. When we're talking about an asset-based approach, what we're recognizing is everyone brings um value to the mathematical conversation and to the learning. And it's not just a question of do they fit a certain, you know, predetermined profile of what it means to be, to have value in their ability to think with and engage with mathematics. So it's that it's knowing that that's already there and it's not something that needs to be, you know, assessed to determine whether students have it or not, but that it's already there and that the teacher's attitude towards every student in the classroom is recognizing that value that every student brings. So those would be just the little two pieces of nuance that I would add. I'm I'm recognizing too, and I would love to have you kind of share some of your ideas about how this connects to some of the ideas that we've had around access and who gets access and you know, kind of these equity conversations. Um, how do you see this idea of asset-based teaching and learning fitting into those equity conversations?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

So I think that's I think that's a big piece of the puzzle, right? Like this idea that um every student does bring value, every student does have the ability to learn these pieces, um, and looking for those pieces as and considering those pieces as assets um to the to um their learning and assets to the classroom and looking to bring those things uh to the puzzle does open the door, right? If I start by us making the assumption that every student that's going to be able to that's going to walk in the door of my mathematics classroom, um if I make that assumption as they walk in the door, I'm much more willing to have a bigger and much more open door uh for the classes that I'm teaching. Every student's going to now have the opportunity to come and be a part of. Instead of having a set of um restrictions on who can actually join my classroom, they have to have had a certain grade or they have to have done a certain demonstration of a certain thing in order to be able to walk in the door of this particular class or that particular class. I think that opens us up to, hey, we can provide opportunity and support um for students to be successful in those kinds of classes if they're interested and they want to uh get moving in those in those classes.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, I appreciate those think that thinking. And um I think that that's connected to maybe some of the um unintentional consequences of not challenging the systems that are set up. Like I'm thinking about how you were talking about access to high-level mathematics courses or the kinds of thinking that typically happens in high-level mathematics courses is often tied back to, you know, students' grades in a previous course or their score on an assessment. And when those grading practices or those assessment structures are not based in this sort of asset-based approach, then oftentimes they give us information about students that aligns with deficit thinking and um, you know, deficit approaches instead of asset thinking and asset approaches. So really thinking about, and I think this is too why we want to expand the conversation on today's episode past just asset-based assessments and into thinking about assets, asset-based teaching and learning. Um, so much of that is around opportunity. And I'm just reflecting back, you know, on some of the times when I was in the classroom and this, some of the systems that I was um a part of, and how it's easy because of how the system is set up to get these preconceived notions about students and our beliefs about what they can or can't do, or what they, you know, whether they're strong or not strong in terms of mathematics and um how important it is to really challenge those. I mean, I know that was something that I didn't ever really do. It's like, oh, well, this student has been put into this math class because they've previously struggled in mathematics, whatever that means. And it's it's as if their course assignment has something to do with them as a person. Whereas this idea is, you know, actually, no, the course assignment might have everything to do with the system and very little to do with the student themselves.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, I think there's a I think there's a lot to be unpacked in that um kind of experience. Um, because I think there's also the um one of the things we want to avoid uh and and talk about this idea of asset-based, one of the things we might want to avoid doing, and this came from one of the articles that I was reading as we were preparing and in identifying what um this asset-based things is not, and that is that it is not just this idea of cheerleading or um well, the article described it as toxic, toxic positivity. Um, I'm I'm having a, you know, just thinking about like we don't want to just go in and start throwing students into places um because oh, the door is wide open and everything. We've got to know uh and we've got to have the ability to um do what's right for students, but it's from the perspective of this student has these feet, this student has these things that they know. This student has these things, these strengths that they bring to the table. This student has these abilities. Um, and and we want to make sure that we set them up for the best success. But we there's a slippery slope of you know, finding out where students are and what they, you know, what they actually have grasp hold of, um, and being able to meet the student there and help them go further, right? Uh, and take them along. Instead of focusing on um what they don't know and what they lack in knowledge, we can look at what they do know and where they bring to the table where we can go from that point uh and and moving forward. I think it's it's a it's a nuanced piece, but I think it it really helps us change the perspective that we have uh about students and about their learning.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah, I agree. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about um, you know, I often share in our podcast episodes my work with my nephew. Um, my nephew is a twin. He has a twin sister. And, you know, for several years now, his sister has sort of met the profile, the typical profile of, oh yeah, she's good at math. I'm putting that air quotes, good at math, um, because she can do procedures really well. She can recall which procedure to do. She can apply uh, you know, a standard algorithm to do a computation and get an accurate answer most of the time. Um and my nephew was, you know, my brother and sister-in-law kind of brought his situation to my attention because he was struggling to memorize his multiplication facts and he was feeling frustrated in class among his fourth grade peers that he wasn't as good at math as everyone else because he didn't think as quickly as they did. And it wasn't until, you know, a colleague of mine and I sat down with each of them individually, both my nephew and my niece, and talked through like, how are you thinking about this mathematics? Like, let's let's have you, you know, think about a math problem and maybe tell me what you think the answer is. But I don't want to know just what you think the answer is. I want to know how you thought about it and what happened inside of your head. And it wasn't until we had that more extensive conversation and gave my nephew the opportunity to share what and how he was thinking about mathematics that we realized like he has an incredible number sense, like much better flexibility with numbers. He thinks, he thinks in terms of place value. He um, you know, he has a he takes a creative approach to computation. He doesn't see everything as, oh, it's an addition problem. So here's how I do that. You know, I line up the digits and I start with the ones digits and add and carry and so on and so forth. Where my niece doesn't have that flexibility. She thinks very algorithmically and very procedurally. Um, so it's both around broadening our definition of what that, you know, what does it mean to bring strengths? What are strengths in math, and then giving students the opportunity to exhibit their strengths so that, as you said, we can, we can take what they do know and build from it. So rather than saying, you know, gosh, my nephew isn't, isn't fast or efficient enough with his multiplication facts. I'm just gonna drill him with flashcards to help him get better. I mean, maybe that's the approach that I'm gonna take. But in the work that I do with him, I really tap into what I know is his strength. And that is his flexible thinking around numbers and his ability to be creative with the mathematical thinking. He's a super, super creative kid. So tapping into his creativity and letting him know that like this is something of value that you bring to mathematical conversation that maybe other kids don't. And you can enhance other kids' learning by sharing this unique strength of yours that helps you make sense and can help others make sense in deeper ways. So that's, you know, that's maybe a uh a confined and smaller example, but um I think it it helps to get to this uh these ideas that you know we've been talking about in terms of student strength and what they bring to the table.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Well, Joni, you were just uh as you were describing what you did with your nephew and all of the pieces um that you guys went through uh with that. I was listening and I was reading uh one of our uh notes here, and one of the things we wanted to talk about with um uh asset-based assessments, and it's talking about the design of those things. And I just gonna, I'm just gonna quote these bullets out here. We'll have the resource out there so uh folks can go and check this out. But I just want you to listen uh as I read these and relate them back to your story because it, I mean, it's exactly what you guys did. Elicit evidence of ways of student thinking, value agency and student voice, validate the diverse ways of student thought and explanation, embrace multidimensionality of mathematical proficiency and different student responses reveal actionable information. You guys, I mean, every one of those pieces there is exactly what you guys did in that story. I was I was just sitting here going, wow, what a cool story, and the way you guys really uh addressed that with your with your nephew and with your niece. Yeah. Um, and your ability now to be able to coach them each in their own individual space. And and you've taken what they bring to the table, an algorithmic approach and a creative approach and a way of seeing mathematics and numeracy, um, that's really foundational in the concept of numeracy, and uh, the other uh uh foundational uh uh piece in in the ability to apply algorithms, right? And to follow those procedures well and to have those uh ingrained. I like bringing those two together now, they can they can really you can work with each one uh individually and and you can meet them and their needs at their space. But both of them have the ability to learn mathematics at a high level, like they can continue to grow. That's both of them. That's right. Uh and and they won't, and and while the system may be set up better for your niece, just the way that it actually is, your nephew is going to have the ability because you guys have identified this. You guys are now going to be able to continue to meet him uh and continue to help him to grow. Uh and that's gonna be awesome. But your niece as well, she's gonna be, she could potentially end up being a little bit like me, which I was very much that algorithmic approach, right? I had the ability, I just man, just boom, boom, boom, algorithm uh all the way through. Uh, but then I I lacked a bit of the creative side uh and the ability to apply uh broadly and the ability to think about um mathematics from a uh a very conceptual piece. And I've only recently in my, you know, as I started teaching uh and then working with teachers directly, uh really kind of developed that side uh of my mathematics uh understanding, right, and in the way that I've seen that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I wanna I want to take the opportunity here to kind of make a bridge too, because I think one of the other things that that ties into this um asset-based thinking, particularly around the assessment side, is is time, right? And and it really resonates in terms of my nephew's story, where he's not that speedy thinker that can recall his facts, you know, as quickly as possible. Um, but he he needs a little bit more time. And I think about when we ground uh or or when we set up our routines around assessment, okay, we're at the end of the unit. So now every kid is gonna take a test to determine what they know from this unit. Um, we're really constraining kids and saying, like, okay, this is the amount of time you're allotted to learn this content. And now we're gonna take a test. And if you haven't learned it, then your grade is gonna reflect um something different, right? And and so thinking about um, thinking about giving opportunities uh to ensure that learning is reflected in students' grade and not just how long it took them to learn. Um I'm thinking about. I attended a session in one of the fall math conferences this year, and my table broke into some conversation around whether we should allow students a second opportunity to take a test and sort of what are the upsides and downsides of that. But when I'm thinking about this asset-based approach, I really feel like an opportunity for test corrections or test retakes has to be a part of that structure from the classroom, because a student could just need a little more time to focus on something. I was thinking about my last few years in the classroom when I was teaching AP statistics. I took this approach with my tests that if you got less than a 70%, a retake was mandatory. Because what I said to my students is if you couldn't get higher than a 70% on this unit test, you don't know this content well enough to be successful with it on the AP test. So we had some intervention, like you need to come to a help session before or after school. And then, you know, let's get some targeted intervention around the concepts from this unit that you weren't able to exhibit your understanding of on the test. And then after that targeted intervention, let's give you another opportunity to exhibit whether or not you've learned those things. Um, so I you there's a lot more there for me to tell if uh, you know, somebody's interested. I'm certainly willing to go there. Uh, I don't want to dive into all of that right now. Um, but I think that is, you know, maybe one specific thing to think about in terms of classroom practices that do align with asset-based teaching and learning, is giving kids um, you know, additional opportunities to exhibit what they've learned.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, I think there's there's also the opportunity, and I I like that idea of the additional uh opportunity to to demonstrate my learning, to demonstrate the the the knowledge that I have. One of the other pieces to the puzzle, and I I was reading another one of the articles, and I can't remember which one, um uh and in our preparation, and it was talking about when we look at grades from previous courses, you know, because a lot of times that is kind of the gatekeeper for some of some of the courses and some of the things, and and often that's what ends up resulting in students being put in in this track or that track or or you know, having to repeat a course or whatever the case may be, right? We we look at um grades based, and oftentimes it's really the the high uh grades that I'm actually talking about here because what ends up happening is the grade itself, and we talked about this in our uh our um what's in a grade episode of the podcast um that we did a couple of years ago or last year, we talked about this idea that um oftentimes the grade itself reflects something entirely different than their knowledge of the course, right? What is actually scored and what is actually graded um in the course is not necessarily or reflecting necessarily their knowledge of the content of the course, but rather uh often their compliance with the uh expectations of of the class, um, their compliance with the expectations of the school. So behavior, those kinds of things, uh, effort is sometimes uh reflected there. Instead of looking at uh here are the things, here are the things that I want a student to know uh at the end of my course. This is this is what my students should know when they leave my classroom. And then looking at those things and those things only uh as I go forth and try to reflect that in a grade. And that's what the assessment is. And then, you know, there's the positive side of these things. I I've read a little bit uh about the idea of instead of starting at everybody at 100%, right? This is the expectation, then we take away points for you know miscalculations or wrong answers or wrong thinking or whatever it is that we take away points for. Um, there's the idea of starting from the bottom up and everybody starts at the bottom and then they earn points for this. But really, that ends up uh ends up in the same place. Maybe, maybe a slightly more positive piece because now I've I've earned all of these points, or I've I've they've shown, they've demonstrated um each of those things. But in essence, uh we end up uh punishing them for not knowing, right? Uh and so there's this this uh kind of balance. But at the same time, um and I wrestle with this, and I think a lot of teachers wrestle with this. Um, and so maybe you've got some insight uh on this one. But I I wrestle with the idea that like we we do need to know where I stand. I do need to know where this student stands. And there needs to be some level of accountability, right? Right, the student does need to to demonstrate uh uh a knowledge um and a and a bit of knowledge so that I can know where to start uh and where to continue to help them moving on. I think it would be a complete disservice to take a student who um did not have all of the parts and pieces um that they are going to need to put them in a course that we we know they're not prepared for. Like that there there is something to that. Um but how we how we apply that brush stroke, if you will, um needs some careful reassessment, right? I think that's the that's the piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah, I would agree. And I think that's the challenge is not putting the appropriate amount of value in those assessments and using uh the results of assessments and grades and you know those sorts of pieces appropriately. Um, you know, like your broad brushstroke idea of like not extending what information we're getting from grades or assessments beyond um what they actually tell us about what a student knows. There's a there's a lot to unpack here, Curtis. And I think this is you know certainly only the beginning of the conversation, but um I hope with the ideas that we've explored, we've given our listeners some things to think about, uh, maybe some extended conversations they can have in their own settings. And I imagine we're gonna have some more conversation around these ideas of asset-based teaching and learning.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator. See you next time.