SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Room to Grow. I'm Curtis Brown.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

And I'm Joni Fenderberg. We work together at Texas Instruments, and we're glad you're here. We're looking to continually improve our practice, and we understand that you are too. We hope that you'll find this podcast as a room for you to grow along with us as we wrestle with and explore ideas about teaching math even better. Curtis and I learned so much from our guest on this episode, Robert Adute. Robert founded yeamath.org as a resource for teachers, parents, students, and everyone else to be inspired, motivated, and excited about learning math. Our conversation covers some challenging ideas around why kids struggle to learn math and how the physiology of stress plays out in math anxiety. We know you'll catch Robert's enthusiasm for students, learning, and people, and you'll be ready to dive into all the free resources Robert has created. So let's get going.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Well, Joni, I'm super excited for today because today we actually have uh our first guest on the podcast today. And um, we're gonna be talking about this thing called math anxiety and addressing that and looking at that. And so uh Joni, um, we have done some things at TI with with uh with Robert at Hooter, and uh we now get a chance to uh visit with him today. And so, Robert, I am so excited uh to have you on the podcast and uh hear from you, especially on this topic of math anxiety. I know this is uh sort of a passion area of yours and getting students um relaxed and ready um for uh uh learning in the in their classrooms and things. And so Robert, I I just want to give you a chance to introduce yourself uh to our podcast audience, uh who you are, what you do, give us a little bit of background, and then of course we'll uh kind of dive into uh the ideas here and math anxiety and addressing that here in a moment.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Thank you, Kurt. Thank you, Joni, for having me on. I'm super excited, super pumped to talk about how we can inspire our students. And I think this is gonna have a great, this is gonna be a good, like valuable experience for both us and people listening. Um just brief background about me. Um I'm a former math classroom teacher, high school teacher. And um I noticed in the classroom that our um the lessons were really high energy, high vibes. We were having a good time, we were laughing, we were connecting, we were joking around. Sometimes I would even come dress up in costumes, and we uh called myself the Mathema chicken, for example.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Um I borrowed an El Pollo, an El Pollo Loco costume from a friend. I had a friend of a friend who um worked at El Pollo Loco, and I borrowed the costume. So I am the Mathama chicken sometimes, and uh it was just lively beacons of joy and laughter and fun. And so a student suggested that maybe we should film it to kind of capture that moment. This is before YouTube was a thing. This was back in Google Video, before Google had purchased YouTube. So the only thing I had was just the mini DV camcorder, and so we stacked a stack of books precariously upon a chair upon a desk and hit record, and the Yay Math movement was born. Fantastic. So that the videos have taken a life of their own on YouTube. It's a pretty it the channel's popping. It's it's exciting to watch the impact and the reach that it has because it's basically the only, it's the preeminent and first. Some people are doing it now, but it's the pre-eminent and first, and the to my mind, most quality teacher-student learning experience there is online because you can't replicate vibe, you can't replicate connection, you can't replicate uh emotional um bond and authenticity. And it it plays on the video. It's like you're just witnessing a day in the life of, and they're laughing and we're joking, and it's spontaneous, and I'm doing impressions, and and then I dress up in a pharaoh costume and call myself the Matham Egyptian and um and plenty others. I have some I have the Beometry, The Pirate, The Pirate.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

The Pirate. I'm gonna have to go watch that one. I don't think I've seen that one yet.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yeah, there's Obama math. Yes, because uh, you know, Michelle knows that uh I have a pretty good uh I have some time on my hands here because I'm out of a job and uh decides to be a math teacher and uh help people with their trigonometry.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

So uh so that that's getting into that's getting in, that's the perfect segue. I mean, look, uh you can tell that I'm having fun. It uh it's so much fun. It's I love this work. It's it's I would pay to be on your show. Yeah, you're doing such good work. I I'm serious, I it's like so corny, but I would. Um, just because this is good work that we're doing, and it I want to be able to synergize some messages together with the two of you and and help people that are listening and maybe capture and create some magic themselves um with their learners. And uh, and I will bounce it back to both of you with this concept. I'm I want to, Joni. You said something amazing last week um in our just pre-interview, just us hanging out. I love what you said, and you basically said like their learning has more to do um with their experience than what I do as a teacher. Yeah, isn't that like that's really profound that you said. I I really profound their learning has more to do with their experience. Right. And so it's all about their experience. There's so much to unpack and creating that experience. Right. And I look forward to having that discussion with the two of you today.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, Robert, man, that's such a great intro to who you are in the Yay Math uh organization and and really your movement. So super exciting uh to hear that. So we've got a few questions, a few things um maybe lined up uh to chat about. Um and maybe let's let's kind of begin this first little section here. Um talking about, and Joni weigh in on these two. Um, talking about uh this idea of of relationship and and thinking about um what's really at the heart of of a learner's struggle. Um and maybe maybe we can just start there. And I'll just kind of toss that up there and let you two kind of chat about that.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

The heart of the learner's struggle. Joni, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

I just well, I just want to say I'm I'm so excited that we have you on, Robert. Like not only because I think your enthusiasm is contagious, but also because I'm I think so much of you know what your message is and the work that you've done ties so nicely to the conversations that Curtis and I have had on Room to Grow in, you know, our previous seven episodes. And I think we're really gonna come, you know, I so appreciate you acknowledging my nugget of wisdom. Sometimes I say things that like I don't even realize that there is some power behind that. So thank you for that recognition. But I think there's so many components of your message that tie a thread through the conversation that Kurt and I have had. So, this idea around why kids struggle to learn mathematics and what we can do as educators, I think you offer such a fresh perspective on that. And and definitely I think it is connected to what the learner experience is. You know, in your introduction, how you just shared that, you know, kids are laughing and kids are having fun. And, you know, I know that that's that's what we want in math class, right? We want kids to be relaxed enough that they're finding the experience enjoyable. Um, because when you're relaxed, that opportunity to learn and that creativity side of your brain can come out in ways that it can't when you're feeling under stress. So um, you know, I'm thinking about things that I learned. I know Joe Bowler wrote a really interesting article several years ago about why timed tests don't work, right? Like why we shouldn't be doing time tests for math effects, because when we're under pressure, when we're feeling stressed, when we're feeling uncomfortable, that part of our brain that that thinks mathematically actually shuts down. So I think, you know, so much of your message and the work that you've done, and I know you were intentional about it, but I would bet that some of it you just did sort of intuitively and instinctively and ended up really making a big difference for kids. So as you reflect now back on the start of the Yay math movement and all that you've learned and experienced through that, and even since you know you started doing that, I'm I'm just curious about your thoughts about what is at the heart of students' struggle with math and particularly through the lens of the things that we as teachers have control over.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Oh, that's such a that's that's a beautiful question. And I, yes, definitely big uh props to Dr. Bowler of Stanford University. I love that she's on the right side of history about timing tests. Uh, there's a lot that we can learn from that. I know there's constraints in the classroom, but there's a lot that we can do to ease that pressure. I think it's a subjective pressure. So definitely I appreciate her message in that regard. Um, I mean, uh the the way I'm gonna address your question is clearly with a little bit of math. I love it. Okay. Awesome. So rather than thinking about how to not have a negative experience as in double negative as a turning into a positive, why can't we create ways to think of adding a positive number or experience? I love it. You know what I mean? So it's like, let's reframe the question as rather than avoid struggle, let's try to instill inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

That's just a good way to let's go to high, high, go shoot the moon. Shoot the moon, and then we'll land on a satellite, and that'll be high enough. So I'll give you an example. Give you an example. I was thinking back to it still makes me laugh. I love it. I was thinking back to this, I was giving a test, right? So you picture the you know, math test, all the kids are in there, it's quiet, right? They all have their heads angled, you know, as they're writing. They have that head angle look and the writing furiously, right? Yeah. And um, and you hear like you know, you hear the sound of the fluorescent lights and the pens and the eraser and all that stuff. And then you see one student's head look up and catch your eyes. And they're he's trying to get your attention. This happened, right? I remember this student. He's he catches my attention, and immediately the math teacher in me, the teacher in me, is playing out like, okay, so let's go through the list. He doesn't understand a question. I need to clarify. Um, what if he says even something a little more dreadful like, Mr. Dude, I don't remember learning this in class. Mr. Dude, I don't remember doing this. Or like this. Like, did we ever do something like this? Some sort of like veiled complaint. That happens sometimes. But that didn't happen this time. You know what this kid did? He like he looked up from his test and he pointed to the paper. I'm gonna try to do it for audio for people listening. He pointed to the paper, and then he like gave a thumbs up and he's like, good test, good test, good test. And then he goes back to work. Love it. He's like, Mr. Dude, good test, good test. And he goes back and I'm like, oh my god, that's the best. That was awesome. That was awesome. Like, what do I do? What do I what what are some things that I do? You know, I always use the word please in my test. Please factor the following. I always use the word please in my test. Please factor the following, you know, something like that. Please show all your calculations, things like that. The experience, back to that thing. I don't use cap, I don't caps lock, I don't use exclamation points. I do things like, you know, draw a picture of how you're feeling right now at the top, for example. You know, like uh framing the framing the experience in such a way that's that's inspirational. I once heard of a teacher who demanded that every student the the the requirement for getting a test from the teacher when you start taking a test is that every student needed to make eye contact with the teacher and say, bring it. That's great. That's awesome. Can you imagine the whole room like one after the other? Bring it, bring it, bring it, bring it. Like that it can it pumps you up. It pumps you up. This is energy, it's palpable, it's tangible, and it's in our control. So these are just like little anecdotes about how can we get him to say good test. Did I do a little joke on there? Yeah, did I did I use words like please? You know, so I I would say the starting from the the goal and working back to how we can, you know, avoid them feeling that math is drudgery or dreadful.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah. I think that's I think there's incredible wisdom in that. I love um the concept of of getting my students to a point uh where they're gonna look at the test and go, yeah, yeah, you did it. This is this is it right here. This is it right here. I I didn't I Scout's Honor, I never got that comment in my class when I gave an exam. So good on you on that. Yeah, it didn't happen often. Didn't happen often. That's fantastic. And maybe this is a good way to kind of segue into this concept of of we're we're talking about students getting into this mode where they where they're in a space that they actually look at a test and they think about it as, hey, this is a good test. So uh this idea of math anxiety and and you're talking about some pretty important solutions there. Um I I I'm interested maybe in the way that you have used, I mean, you're talking about making things uh uh sort of humorous. What's the exper what's the uh experience? Why do you think that that is maybe the the space and maybe maybe even more so? What other kinds of human solutions might uh uh apply in addressing this this concept of math anxiety?

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Sure. Yeah, you're right. This I mean, this was the subject of the uh TEDx talk I gave on math anxiety, um, whereby it was research from Stanford University that that cites medical research, uh biological research that cites that the portions that are of our brain that are responsible for numerical processing, the rational side of our brain, shuts down when we are in a state of fight or flight, when we get a adrenaline surge. Um, there's other parts of the body that shut down too, like your fingernails don't grow, for example. You know, you don't have you have no need for your fingernails. I know I I remember reading the thing. I was like, yeah, your body doesn't need your fingernails to grow when you're running for your life, you know. And uh yeah, it's things like that. Like there's certain body body functions. Think of it like that. Think of it like that. Certain parts of your fingernails don't grow and certain parts of your brain shut down. They just go dark. Sure. It's the same, same concept. It's like it's as scientific as that. It's just the light switch that's down. And so it becomes so clear that how we can click on their side of that side of their brain has to do with them feeling good, comfortable, not afraid, not scared, safe, relaxed, maybe even a bit of like anticipation, like uh, like uh the room for surprises, room for spontaneity. And and at all costs, at all costs, avoiding negative energy. Energy is a real thing. In fact, I'll tell you this. I in some of my earlier days as a teacher, I had some really audacious ideas, and some people who are probably litigious would probably come after me for some of this stuff that I did. But I used to run little workshops when we had like uh student um teacher bonding days or retreats or things like that, where we would go out for a day as a school and do like different programs. There'd be yoga and things like that, like and um different types of workshops. And I was responsible for the following. I don't know how I came up with this, but check it out. It's really, really significant, okay. What I would what I did was I, me and let's say three or four teachers, we were in on this little gag where we put a hidden camera perched at different plates, uh a different part of the room, okay? We would invite the students in, they would sit on, you know, sit on the floor, you know, sit in something like that. And then I would say to one of the teachers, I'd be like, Dina, did you bring that printout? And she would say, This was all a gag, right? We were in on it, they weren't. And she'd be like, What printout? I was like, the printout. I asked you to bring 20 copies of that printout for this program. We're gonna be in here for like 55 minutes. We don't, we can't do anything, there's no printer out here. She said, You never told me about anything. I was like, Did I not email you? And then we went back and it got dark on purpose. And then that someone else would be like, You guys, you gotta take it easy. Are you upset? Are you mad? I was like, No, no, I'm not, I'm not. I'm just well, maybe I just needed, I don't know what to say, I don't know. And it was even acting it out now, it feels kind of weird. And the kids got really squirrely and uncomfortable. And after we did that for as long as we can manage, as long as we couldn't, they couldn't handle it anymore. We're like, all right, you guys, that was all the gag. Ha ha, you know, shake it off, shake it off.

unknown 18:36

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

And then we played, we played the recording for them, and we looked at their faces, and it was they were horrified. Wow. It was like they're in a they're in a suspense thriller with chainsaws and blood and stuff. That's what it looked like. They're these are 16-year-olds, they're they're kids. Wow. They're kids, and they and they're like, look at your face. Look at your look how miserable you look right now, just witnessing this thing. And it's there's proof right there. I'm pointing to your face. And they were dying, they loved it. They were laughing so hard because, first of all, they're relieved. Right, right. Um, and secondly, they were really like convinced, like, okay, energy's a thing. Energy's a thing, it's it's measurable. Sure. It it's visible, it's visible. And uh that really spoke to a lot of us about how you could set the tone. And the and the best part about this this conversation is that you set the tone in the class, you set the tone in the home, you set the tone with your friends, you set the tone at dinner, you set the tone when you wake up, you set the tone when you go to sleep. It's it's just like we're happy to be talking about math learning.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

I have a question for you, Robert. I want to hear about your experiences, you know, as as all all of us on the call right now, all of us on the on this recording have taught kids and have been high school teachers. And I want to hear about, you know, that kid that we've all had that is a couple of different kids, actually, that I'm thinking about. One is that kid who, you know, is a 10th grader and for all 10 years of their schooling experience have her have felt like they don't understand math, they're not successful at math, they're, you know, the typical not a math person thing that we hear. Um, that just kind of comes into your class feeling like, you know, I'm not good at this and I'm not comfortable with this. And then I'm also thinking about that kid who's maybe these are related, but maybe not. The kid who is like, I'm never gonna raise my hand, I'm never gonna answer the teacher's question in front of my peers. That's just not where I'm comfortable. So, how do we think like a typical kid, the hey, hey, Mr. Mr. Duke, great test. That kid is one kind of kid. But how do we think about the kid who's like, just hide me in the back row and I won't cause trouble, but I'm not gonna speak up and engage either. How do we think about engagement and ensuring learning is happening with those kids who are maybe not as active participants in the learning process?

SPEAKER_03 21:18

That's a good, yeah, it's a good question. We have to cast a wide net. You're right. Um, well, for first of all, I would I would never force a student to do anything against his or her will. I don't believe in calling on them, even if it's done in, oh, you know this, you know this, we talked about this, okay. I wouldn't do anything like that. I would be completely follow their lead in terms of readiness. Um, I would acknowledge the feelings that they have have had coming in and um commiserate with them a little and in a healthy, age appropriate ways. Uh, about like that must have been really hard. You know, maybe listen to a story. I bet they got a story on tap about what happened last year or the year before, you know, maybe with when. A real teacher was out and someone had to come in, and it was a bad situation for everyone, that happens. So I would listen to the story. Um, I I you know, I would on on the on the road of treating them like blood in a way. Like I would, I would on the road to that, you know, on a in a healthy teacher-student boundary relationship, blah, blah, blah. All that stuff, you know, needless to say. But like I would just really commiserate with them and and feel. And then once that they just soften the blow, like take, take off the the the sting, because I think a big part of it is just wanting to be heard and wanting to be understood that they're not into it as much. Starting with that and letting that mellow for a while, letting that marinate through the through the ether. Then let's say you let's say they're able to answer or understand a very a simple concept. You know, an example I like to do, for example, if someone is adamantly against math at all times, I like to just throw to them, I'm like, all right, what's five plus five? You know, and they're like 10, haha. And I'm like, do you hate 10? Do you hate five plus five? Is five plus five the enemy? Like, no. So something, something after five plus five, and before completing the square in algebra, somewhere from there, from those two points, you have gotten a soured experience. So, like, let's find out where it is. Is it the fractions thing? Is it what is that? Is that yeah, fractions? Oh, I hate all that. So now they're coming alive, right? Oh, I hate fractions. No, I hate my former department chair. Actually, had students write a letter of apology to fractions.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

That's awesome. That is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

Dear fractions. Dear fractions, dear fractions. Yeah, it was sort of like apology/slash olive branch. Dear fractions. Uh, and every letter was different, it was personal. Uh, I have really not liked you.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I want to be your friend. Yeah, I want to be your friend.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Exactly. Seeing it's personal, right? And then they would submit that letter to the teacher about like what what is what why fractions have been such a such a thorn in their side. And then, you know, and then that was uh the road to to recovery, to to pain relief, to lifting the pressure off. And I and I would I I wouldn't force anyone to to be anything they're not. I mean, I I think if you cannot kick the can down the road, if you can not kick the can down the road and just do play your part, you you might plant seeds that that uh sprout next year.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah, yeah. Think of it that way. Kind of like the way that I hope politicians are. You know, we all hope that. We all we want politicians to play the 20-year game, right? Yeah, not the two-year game.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Is so the same thing goes with Matt. It's like let them let them blossom next fall, not this fall. I would love that. Yeah. Maybe they were just waiting, they're cocooning the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

That's that's a fantastic. I love that that concept of we're all in this together. Cause I think so often we as teachers, I know me myself, um, kind of get caught in this. Um, these are my kids, and this is my year, and this is my right. And and so we're trying to to uh solve all the problems right now and and get everything uh fixed immediately instead of treating it and treating this as a uh you know, eight, nine, 10 year process, right? That that these students are are going to be learning for a long, long time uh when they come through my come through my door. And even, you know, me as a high school teacher, thinking about the fact that, you know, there is a post-high school for this student. Right. Right. I mean, that's what I'm trying to prepare them for and and thinking about that. And and I love that concept of allowing them to blossom after I've maybe planted a seed or or put a little water on the seed that was planted by the teacher before me. Um, and and not um not freak that uh that they don't blossom while they're in my classroom. That's ego, right? Right. But that that there that there is a space, right, for them to to blossom at a later date and a later time um and just celebrate that. I love that that uh that celebrate uh celebration of that. That's super, super awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, like it comes back to it's it comes back to that idea that it's not about us, right? It's about them. So as much as there's that temptation to like, I'm gonna win over every single kid this year, it's like, you know, maybe you're not, but maybe you're gonna make progress and maybe you're gonna plant a seed, and maybe you're gonna, you know, allow a kid the space to start to transition their attitude towards math because of the experiences that they've had in your classroom. So I I love that. Um, and again, I love our focus on it's about it's about our students, it's not about us as teachers, not about our ego, it's about their learning. We've had some conversation about um the importance, and I know you're up on this too, Robert, through Nctm has talked about the importance of productive struggle. And even in the um, you know, standards for mathematical practice that have been out for 10, 11 years now, there there is this emphasis on like learning math deeply includes that experience of productive struggle. So, what are some of the strategies that you use in your classroom or or even indicators or markers that you're looking for to ensure that students are struggling productively as they're engaging in math with you?

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I I take I try to learn from as many people as possible. Um, I didn't do this always in my career, but I I fell into it, whereby you pose a problem without any data or feedback, and then tried with collaboratively with the group to um to pick at it from different angles. Um as opposed to jumping, it's so it's so knee-jerk, especially for understandably so, myself included, to say, well, today we're gonna be talking about, let's say, like factoring. We talk about factoring, so we just have to jump straight into factoring, you know. But I didn't, I I I used to do that where you just jump straight into the thing. So there's not really a struggle, it's more of like a let me show you how to do this. Whereas if you, you know, for people that are math educators understand math, if you have an equation, a quadratic equation with x squared involved and it equals zero. I even pose to the students, like, well, what could x be? Can you can you think of a number? Let's, you know, like x squared, you know, uh plus four x plus three equals zero. Something like that. It's like, what could x be? And then you have a conversation like, well, oh, sooner or later they figure out that x has to be negative. Because it's like x squared plus plus four x plus three is like there, you need some negatives to bring it down. That number sense, that number flexibility that Dr. Bowler talks about as well is uh really great. And so it becomes more of like a puzzle. Um, I'm a huge fan of riddles.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

I have so many, I have so many, and I've collected them since I was a teenager. I have rock solid, like all age, perfect for dinner, perfect for parties, riddles that are not tricks, gags, or ha ha, there's no answer all along. None of that. Or it's like, oh, I didn't say and I said and ha ha ha. No, nothing like that. It's all they're all clean, elegant, beautiful riddles. Right. That like eighth graders to retirees love. Um, and that's an example of struggle. That's an example of that. It's actually one of the that's one of the workshops that I offer when I travel to schools and stuff, is I do riddles with them, and then the instantaneously they they become like seventh grade teachers. They're like, How do you do this? I don't know. There's no answer. Like, you're a career, you're a 20-year career professional and you're acting like seventh grader in the class, being like, I don't know how to do this. Yes, yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

But you know what though, Robert? That's the thing though, because uh Joni, you and I have had this conversation several times about my my son uh and his uh riddles when he walks around the house and he's always posing to me these. And and of course he's you know, he's entering now fourth grade, and so think fourth grade um style uh riddles. And I just love that he'll come into me and what's what's uh you know 77 times 400 million plus 65 minus 72, you know, and he just like rattles off this whole thing and he's he's so engaged in getting the solutions to these kinds of problems because one, he came up with it, right? I mean, it was it's his problem, not mine. Uh and and then two, it was posed in this uh sort of non-uh intimidating space, like uh I'm trying to challenge you, right? And and I'm trying to kind of get you engaged with this, dad. Um, and so that's that's exactly it. You're nailing it. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

What do you do? What do you how do you respond?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

How do well we start I ask him a question in return, generally is my is well, how do we do this part of that problem, right? And so I'll I'll ask him, you know, Dodd, we we break it down and we chunk it. And I'm trying to, you know, teach him about the the this concept of eating a whale uh one bite at a time, right? I mean, that's how you do it. And so trying to trying to work with him on that, on that concept. That's that's my general uh general response. So um that's that's totally it.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

You're trying to go from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Right. That's that's totally totally it. Yeah, I love that one. So um we've had some uh really actually good conversation here around this this student concept and and what are some things that we as teacher um can do. Before we leave this, Robert, do you have some anything else to kind of uh pull on for what are the uh things when I see those students and I I note it in my classroom that I've got uh a kid who is has shut down or is is actively resistant to the things um that we're trying to do. And we can tell that that you know they walk in the door and there's a cold sweat that happens. Um you know, because I've I've seen it, I've experienced it. Dude, I even did myself uh in some cases uh experience this kind of like, wow, I'm walking into this classroom. So what are some things, maybe uh if you have anything else to add to that um before we transition, um what are some things a teacher can do in response?

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yeah, uh it's it's a good point. Um the it has to be the energy needs to be parsed out. The the emotion of the student needs to be parsed. Is it shut down hostile or is it shut down protective? Getting to those, they're different. Shut down hostile may affect the class, so that needs to be addressed privately and compassionately. Um, and and saying, like, I like you have every right to how you feel. I'm not gonna uh tell me the things that have happened to you that uh you resent, and I will actively work to not do that with you. I probably don't do it already, but I just want to make sure that we're not doing those things with reasonable balance. Like you as like, I'm going to challenge you, but I won't put you on the spot. Let's put it that way. Or if it's shut down, protective and hiding, and it's like, okay, you're safe here. I'm not gonna single you out. You know, it's our this is your class too. All I would encourage you to do is like if you have a question, you see everyone here asking questions, you have every right to ask a question as well. You can see that when people ask questions, they they feel comfortable to do so, and you're invited to do that as well. If you don't want to do that, then just maybe write it down and ask me after class or send it to me on an email. It's it's like you're their consummate advocate. Yes, you are their number one advocate. There you are, you go to bat for them, and they know it. Yes, and they can smell it, they they can they can feel that, and that comes with some degree of challenge, but it's a I like to say, this course will be a fastball, but it won't be a curveball.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, yeah, I like that. That's a good quote. This course will be a fastball, not a curveball. I'm not gonna throw you a curveball. Not a curveball. I like that. I like that a lot. Well, Robert, that's uh, you've given us an incredible number of nuggets uh here when we're thinking about uh student math anxiety and kind of this this uh student focus on on anxiety in in the math classroom. And so I I really have appreciated uh our conversation for our listeners out there. Um be listening because um we've got uh we've got a little bit more, Robert, uh coming up here uh in the coming weeks. Um so be watching for part two of our conversation here with uh with Robert Ed Hoot.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator. See you next time.