SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Room to Grow. I'm Curtis Brown. And I'm Joni Funderberg. We work together at Texas Instruments, and we're glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

We're looking forward to continually improving our practice, and we understand that you are too.

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We hope that you'll find this podcast as a room for you to grow along with us as we wrestle with and explore ideas about teaching math even better. In today's episode, Curtis and I continue our conversation about fostering curiosity and creativity in students. But this time, we consider these ideas from the teacher's perspective. We suggest that, because we teach students in addition to teaching math, we want to foster the characteristics that will serve them well beyond our classrooms. We talk about the ways that some classroom practices might inadvertently stifle creativity and curiosity of our students, and we offer some suggestions for how to shift practice to encourage more creativity. We would really love to hear your thoughts and experiences with these ideas. So please listen and then let us know. Let's get going.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, Joni, it's a pleasure to be talking with you again today. Really excited that we get to do uh another episode uh and record and just talk a little bit, um, extending the conversation that we had last time. Uh, where last time, if you if our audience hasn't uh hasn't heard, you should go back and and check out uh the first episode uh from this season, passing along the legacy of curiosity to our students. Um, because in that episode, uh Joni and I had a a good conversation really just about the importance of uh curiosity and exploring it, encouraging it in the classroom and some of the things that you can do uh surrounding that. Today we're gonna look a little bit deeper into um really some of the things that we do uh and some of the things we don't do that can both um I guess I suppose encourage and discourage uh curiosity. And depending on the timing and the um the way that we do some of these things. So I'm really excited for this conversation. So uh, Joni, with that, um maybe do you have a few opening things for us to think about?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, we were talking about how we're gonna differentiate this episode from the last one. And I think in the last episode, we really spent our time trying to unpack what it looked like when students were being curious and um fostering their own creativity and what it what does it look like to have students sort of taking more responsibility for their own learning? And I think today we're gonna focus a little bit more on the teacher side of that. So instead of the descriptions around what it looks like when students are doing that, what does it look like when a teacher is creating the situation in the classroom for that stuff to actually happen? So we we wanted to start today by kind of maybe a little bit connection back to the other episode by talking about incentivizing, like why, why as a teacher should I take the time to do this, or what's my buy-in that this is actually something that's really important to do? And Curtis, in preparation for this episode, I shared a couple of resources with you that are actually I'm gonna call them timeless. They've been around for quite some time. So one is um a TED talk that we'll link in our show notes by Sir Ken Robinson. Um sadly, he just passed away, I think a couple of years ago, year and a half ago, maybe. Yeah. But he was great. And and he did this TED talk. If you haven't listened to it yet, I'd really encourage you to. He's he's super, super entertaining. Um and he talks about it's kind of a pessimistic attitude uh about schooling. Like I think the title of his TED talk is something about how school kills or stifles curiosity in students. Um, but I think he has a a huge point in that he talks about how when we create the structures that we've created around schools and what our society has come to value, that creativity seems to get lost in that and curiosity seems to be diminished. So um it's one of those that just kind of speaks to your heart and uh and sort of reinforces this idea that we all are better people when we have the opportunity to express our curiosity and creative side. So that's really important. And then the other resource that I just thought was relevant here, and and this comes from the place of um, you know, the two the both of us having experience at the secondary level teaching high school kids. And I think many of our high school teacher, educator, listeners out there will agree that we often struggle with student motivation, where we feel like students just don't care about math class and they're not interested in working hard. And and uh, you know, kind of isolating motivation made me think about Daniel Pink's book, Drive, which again was out a couple of decades ago, maybe. Um, and he in that book he talks about what I think actually even the subtitle is The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us. And oftentimes I know certainly when I was in the classroom, uh, the motivation factors that I used were kind of threats and grades and penalty and um, you know, rewards and incentives and that sort of thing. So he he refers to those as like sticks and carrots, right? Like here's like a carrot that I'm gonna dangle to motivate you as a positive reward or a stick that I'm gonna threaten as a, you know, negative reward. But what he talks about and what the research around human behavior and motivation says is that motivation is really intrinsic. And the things that motivate us most are autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I think that ties to this topic, especially in the area of autonomy and purpose. Like for sure. The more we can give students the opportunity to control their own learning process, which ultimately is the goal of teachers anyway, right? Um, the the more motivated they are to engage in that process with us. So I think not only is this something that like it's it's good for us as humans, but it also can address one of what I think is a you know pervasive problem, which is student motivation.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, all of us math teachers, right? We're looking for ways to get our students to be motivated, engaged, um, and connected to um, you know, the learning that's going on in our math classroom. So that's I uh this is yeah, that's huge, right? I mean, that's such a big, big task for all of us, and we we think about it often. And I think secondly, you know, to go to um, you know, maybe a bigger purpose for why we're doing what we're doing, right, is remembering that uh we are in fact um teaching students who will eventually leave our classrooms. I think I that sounds like something I said in a in a previous podcast episode, I'm pretty sure. But like we are talking about human beings who eventually are gonna leave our classroom and go and have uh a career. They're gonna go um do something. And so one of the biggest ways, the best ways that we can prepare them for the jobs, especially that are coming uh coming about now, right? I mean, frankly, we're probably teaching students uh who are gonna have jobs that don't even exist right now, right? I mean, it's that's certainly been the case recently. And I think it's gonna continue to be the case that um, you know, they're gonna end up having careers and jobs that uh in things that just don't even exist right now. And so curiosity, innovation, um, ownership of uh my own thinking and learning are are all things that um we need to be able to be sure that we're giving our students uh a chance to have and and we're teaching them ways to have those things um as they leave our classroom. So I think that's uh I think that's super important. So as we move into this discussion, we kind of think about this a little bit. Um perhaps we can address this or we can start by um looking at uh some of the things that we either do or don't do in our math classrooms that um uh could potentially uh dampen or stifle that curiosity. What are some of the things that maybe you see, Joni, as um places for us um to maybe reconsider or think differently uh about some things that we do?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah, I think there are things that we do. And when I think back to, you know, a time uh one job that I had in my career was was working with middle and high school math teachers across a whole district. So 17 different schools. I spent time in a lot of different classrooms, a lot of different teaching styles. And and one thing, again, I feel like we say this almost every episode, Curtis, but I I do want to call it out that you know, you and I both share a very fundamental belief from the core of our being that teachers are doing the very best they can. We don't absolutely any teacher that's intentionally stifling creativity and curiosity in their students.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So I just want to start by saying they're definitely not doing that on purpose.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

They're definitely not. So, but I do think, and even again, reflecting back on my own time in the classroom, there were things that I did that probably resulted in stifling curiosity and creativity in my students that I didn't realize. Yeah, I see you pointing at yourself too, yes, for sure. I think we're all guilty of doing this. So one of the things that I think is maybe most prevalent is the teacher always being in charge of the learning. So the where you come in and the teacher has decided, you know, what uh what kids are gonna engage with. Like, I'm gonna write these notes on the board and I want them to copy them down exactly as I've written them. And I'm gonna explain to students how to do this kind of a math problem. And I'm gonna give them step by step, and then I'm gonna go back and look at their work and make sure they followed all the same steps that I said. And again, I know that's coming from a place of good intention. I I often taught that way early in my career, thinking I just my my internal thought process was I want to make it as easy as possible for students. So I'm gonna break this down into the most understandable way. And what I didn't realize is I was creating the easiest, simplest, and most understandable way for me. Not, and that's not necessarily what's most understandable for my students because we all think differently about things. So I think the idea of the teacher being the source, sole source of knowledge and thinking in the classroom and always directing the intellectual parts of the lesson is definitely one of those teacher moves that is inadvertently stifling creativity.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

For sure. And I I mean, I did it. Well, I think we all would um would do it. I mean, there's a reason why they there's a phrase out there talking about becoming uh more of the guide on the side instead of the sage on the stage, right? I mean, that this this is a movement. And I I'm I'm as we're talking about this, I'm realizing that we've had a similar conversation for several podcast episodes in a row here, just thinking about um this idea of opening things up. And um I I actually really think, and and you'll speak more to this in just a second, but this idea of uh control um is is huge here um because we as teachers in feel incredibly responsible for our students. I mean, we didn't go into teaching um because it was just the thing to do. We went into it because uh we care deeply about the students, the human beings that walk into the doors of our classroom, and we care deeply about their futures, about their abilities to go out and perform their um their citizenships, right, their lives um to to be able to have jobs and careers, have families and do these things. Like we did this because we're invested in who they are. Um, and so the part that we can control, or at least we feel like we can control, is their learning. But I just wonder, I just wonder if maybe, maybe we we we missed it a little bit. Like who ultimately is in control of that? Who is responsible for student learning at that point? Like I I I just wonder, like I can put I can set my students up for the best, the very best, right? I can do all the things you and I have been talking about and other people have been talking about, and I can attend all the conferences and I can listen to all the experts, um, which by the way, I'm not painting myself to be an expert. I just want to make sure that I do that. Uh like I can do all those things, right? But then there is still my my student has to respond to this, right? My student has to take ownership, my student has to take responsibility. And so we're like, oh we gotta we gotta do everything we possibly can to make sure that they walk out the door with the best possible chance to be successful. And in fact, what we really should be doing is taking advantage of the fact that like it's freeing to realize that as I open this up, my students take on more responsibility for their own learning and it helps them and it also takes some of the the pressure off of my shoulders.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yes. I I love that. And I think you're so right. Like we come from this place of I, you know, convincing ourselves inaccurately that we can control how kids learn. But ultimately learning is not passive. Like nobody learns by being told, right? Right. Like if if it were that simple, being a teacher would be really easy, but it's not that easy. So thinking back, like that that makes me think a lot, Curtis, about a habit that I had in in my classroom days where I was trying to streamline things and make, you know, the lessons go more quickly and have kids catch on more quickly. And my thought was, well, instead of me writing the notes on the board and having them copy down, like I'm just gonna make these note packets and I'm gonna have like the notes pre-done. And the kids will, you know, I'll leave a few blanks and like I'll write the example problem that we're gonna do, but then I'll leave open space where they can copy down the work that I do on the board for that example problem. So I convinced myself that I was, you know, providing the structure that would allow for the learning to happen more quickly. And really what I was trying to do was control exactly how my students thought about it and exactly how my students engaged with the content. And I just want to say, like, I really think part of the issue around wanting to control things is it's it's challenging as a teacher just being in the classroom environment and managing 20, 25, 30 or more students that all have different needs, that are all bringing different things to the classroom, you know, the interruptions, the sort of chaos that is the regular, you know, expected situation of teaching, to the desire to control and have like, okay, I want to, I want to have some predictability here. I want to, you know, I want to control maybe where the questions go. I want to control exactly the math that students think about. When we blow that up and we open it up, now as a teacher, that's more for me to manage. And especially around math content, students could go, if if I leave it open to them, they could go in a direction that is either not related to what I'm trying to teach or that is something that I don't have content expertise in. And that's very um that that's a scary feeling as a classroom teacher. I I need to be able to manage the chaos. And I think that idea of controlling the learning can get lost in that desire to control the chaos. So figuring out how to not control the learning, but still manage your classroom is not a simple feat. And I don't want to, I don't want our conversation to make it sound like, oh, you just, you know, quit owning all the time. You mean it's not just that simple, I mean quite that.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

You know, it's not just that that simple sort of thing. Okay, so I and I I did the pre-done notes thing too. Um, I had I had pre-done notes with fill in the blank uh spaces, and I had uh all of that stuff there. And uh my mindset was around providing my students a um a place for uh reference and a place for um you know organized uh thought. But I never occurred to me what you just talked about right there, and the fact that I that I that by doing that I might have removed an opportunity for them to express something I said in their own words or perhaps uh uh to observe something that they saw as we were doing this to to approach it from their own um from their own manner. So I I I I appreciate your your thought on that. I do though um wonder if the efforts for uh efficiency uh um because I think that's the other thing that was that was in my mind, um, and it's probably in a lot of folks' minds, is is the idea of of efficiency and neatness and and all of those things. I I I wonder if there's a place for that kind of thing. I just I just wonder uh if there's a place and a time for that. Um, because I don't I don't want us to come across and and be saying um, or at least I don't feel like I should be saying that um you know any any kind of pre-done note, any kind of uh reference material that looks that way isn't necessarily going to be beneficial for my kids, right? So I don't I'm I'm I'm trying not to say that.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah. Yeah. I I think No, I think you're doing a good job. And I think I think the I think what we're trying to bring up here is this idea of doing something with good intentions that potentially has consequences that are not what we intend. And it it's reminding me too. I know you and I've talked a little bit about Peter Lilidal's book, um uh Creating Mathematical Thinking Classrooms. I'm not coming up with the title off the top of my head and I don't have the book right in front of me, but um, he one of the things that I read in there that I found really interesting was he was talking about teachers that have all of their bulletin boards are perfect, and they put, you know, at the start of each new lesson of a new topic, they put an anchor chart up that's color-coded and the handwriting is perfect, and there are illustrations and and and he talks about how like the intention is to create this visual appealing thing, and you know, it looks good and students are gonna want to look at it. But in his research, he says that sometimes that had the opposite effect of creating this feeling in the students in the classroom that the work, their work had to be perfect. If all the teacher ever showed was perfect work, then students get the feeling that work has to be perfect. It actually stifles them, right? Because that's that's sort of this tightening up of like, uh, I don't want to be wrong. So that made me think of this, you know, that connects to this theme of like, what are the unintended consequences of things that we do that we have to do?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Well, and I yeah, and I would come back on that, that same thing, right? Like uh there in my mind, certainly, and and I mean, I would love for listeners if they because this is controversial, and I'm sure that that it's you know, Joni and I don't necessarily see the same eye to eye. We'd love to get like some somebody to email us back on this uh at room to growmath at gmail.com. Like email us and say, like, here's what we think, or put it in the comments or chats on on your podcast uh place, because we we do look and look for those comments. We we're interested to hear what you guys are thinking. But like when I'm when I'm hearing that, Jonia, and and I get it, like I I can feel the anxiety that that might put on a student, uh, especially someone like my son, who maybe neatness and organization isn't his like main strong suit, right? Like I can feel that kind of anxiety that might be put there. But at the same time, I also feel or would would appreciate the the the idea that you know I'm putting those things up there uh on my wall as reference material. Um I certainly can get behind like you know, not putting everything up at the very beginning of whatever lesson or or section or whatever, like totally behind that. Like, let's not spoil the opportunity for learning, you know, the the All those kinds of things, right? I'm not going to put the standard on the board uh that explains exactly what we're going to be doing today. You know, I'm not stealing my learning from there. I get that. But like there is a point, at least in my opinion, where it's worth it to have a nice clean piece of reference material that my students can look to. Oh yeah, I need to remember this procedure. That's what it looks like. Good. I'm cool. Now I remember. Or I need to remember this relationship. Oh yeah, Pythagorean theorem. I see it. Yeah. Okay, cool. I'm good. Like I can see benefit to having that kind of stuff ready to go where I can post those things for reference material. Now, my own personal classroom, I didn't have any mathematics on the wall, actually. Uh true confessions. I had I had only motivational material and it was totally all posted cockeyed and sideways so that my students had something to wonder about when they were tired of listening to me talk. So like those are that's what was on the walls in my classroom. I love that. I I get it. I I and I'm gonna, I'm I'm even defending maybe uh the concept of of putting up a pretty uh version of something that I want my students to use as reference material.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I don't think these issues, the these issues are not black and white. There's not a like a right way to do things. Um and I I appreciate our kind of back and forth around it because, you know, in some ways I understand your point of view too, but I also still really believe in not putting that kind of pressure on and um the danger of stifling the creativity. And, you know, one of the things I want to kind of hammer home in this section that you said that I think is really uh resonated with me when you were talking about like I don't I don't want to put the standards on the board at the beginning of the lesson. And I remember that when that was big in my district. Like you always have to write what standard you're doing on the board so students know. But in math, like my teachers would say, Well, I don't want to give away the punchline before we even start, right? Like I don't want to tell kids the thing I want them to get by the end of the lesson at the beginning of the lesson because I want them to get there. Um and I heard this described too as a light bulb moment in students learning, like that. When you when you have that, like, oh, I get it, like that light bulb moment. We don't wanna, we don't want to take those away. And again, I think this ties back to the importance of creating space and structure in the classroom for creativity and curiosity, because that's oftentimes where those light bulb moments come. So as a teacher, I'm gonna circle back to the first thing I said at in this section of the podcast, which is the teacher always directing the learning and being the sole source of knowledge and thinking is going to stifle that, is going to take those light bulb learning moments from kids. And and we don't want to do that. We want kids to experience that excitement and that joy and that passion uh that comes alongside authentic learning.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

So, Joni, um now that we've broken your rules and started with the negative first. Right. Shoot. What can we do? What are the most important moves that uh me as teacher um that I can do? Or or I mean, uh we don't have notes on this, but it might be worth it to to even extend this to I as administrator can do uh to help foster creativity in my students or provide opportunities for my teachers to provide student opportunity uh for creativity. So you've got some ideas here, uh Joni, that we've talked about. Um I'd love to hear about those and then uh maybe we can extend on it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah. And again, I'm thinking of a c a couple of things I just want to throw in here that are some are education related and some not. But uh I'll link to uh a blog post that I read around developing creative students. And one suggested this cool activity where students had a journal and like I don't remember if it was once a week or once a month, but students would have the opportunity to do what they called the hundred questions activity. And they would just literally open up their journal and in one sitting write a hundred questions, like all in a row. And I could see that being a really interesting thing to do at the beginning or even at the end of a unit in a high school math class where it's just like, okay, if we're gonna talk today about um, you know, normal distributions, what are 100 questions you have? And to try to come up with a hundred questions, like sit down and try to do that sometime, Kurt. Like I can get maybe 10, and then I'm like, okay, what do I ask next?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I mean, seriously, yeah. A hundred questions. So I'm wanting a little more clarification on this, like a hundred questions all related to the topic or examples of the topic.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

No, in the blog post, it was just wide open. Any 100 questions you want to ask. So it could be the chance for students to ask anything that was on their mind. You know, why is the sky blue? Or um how how long, how many days is it till Christmas? Like it could, it could literally be anything that kids were thinking about. But the purpose of the activity is that just like opening up your mind, right? So you don't like not to focus what students think about, to give them the space to just think about and question whatever it is that they want to come up with. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Well, that makes, and that's actually a really cool, probably because that gets you into a mindset of asking questions, right? I mean, that's the point, right? Is get me to be thinking about when I see something new, I can ask a new question about it. That's a cool exercise. And I guarantee you, I don't think I could come up with a hundred questions about normal distributions uh for sure. Um unless they were like problems, right? I could we probably come up with like made up problems, but I don't know that I could ask what does, you know, whatever, very much about any math topic. Really, I don't think I could come up with a hundred questions specific to one math topic. But certainly and then and they didn't answer them. Is that true? Like they didn't have to answer them or the teacher didn't answer them. Well, that's safe.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

No, and in the it I and in the and uh I'll like I said, I'll share the um the blog that I read in the in the show notes so our listeners can take a look at it too. But I think it was this was an elementary classroom, and then the teachers would review it just to get a sense about you know, what were their students curious about, and then use that to build lessons and to motivate their kids and to, you know, add context to their lessons and that sort of thing. So I thought that was pretty cool. Um and then, of course, Kurt, there are the maybe more traditional ways of thinking about making space for creativity. So, you know, the more open-ended assignments, open-ended projects, um, you know, the opportunity for students to show their learning in multiple ways, um, you know, portfolio ideas. Some of those are maybe a little more traditional ways for for a teacher to think about, you know, creating some structure. And I would say those are probably fairly accessible to any teacher. You know, you could certainly come up with an or find an open-ended assignment or portfolio structure if this isn't something that you feel like you have much experience doing in your classroom to uh you know to start to shift.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

There's ideas all over the internet for this kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but what each of these ideas are, and I'm I'm really excited now to go read that um article about the 100 questions activity. I think I might try to get that, get my kids to do that. Um I love it because I think my six-year-old could do it really, really well. He loves to ask questions. He's always asking why. And you know what my 10-year-old does too, um, which is fantastic. I love it. Um, but each one of these things um are examples of establishing culture, right? I mean, ultimately that's what we're trying to do. When we, when I when I look back and I think on um these last two podcasts, we're talking about curiosity, we're talking about uh creativity, um, innovation, whatever you wanted to label it, um what we're really trying to do is establish a classroom culture where uh it's student-centered um and not teacher centered, right? Where where the learners are uh put in the forefront, where it's their autonomy, it's their thinking that is driving everything. And so um that's ultimately what this is all about. And it communicates um a a level of trust and value um in the students, right? And in their ability um to take responsibility for the learning that they're that they're gonna have, right? We had that, like that's a that's a thing. I mean, students are in fact responsible for their learning. Um and and it's uh and it's something that we want to encourage them to take responsibility, uh responsibility for.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head, like it is about your classroom culture. And I don't think you can foster student creativity and curiosity without really intentionally attending to that classroom culture piece and and communicating to students that you trust them and you trust and you value the the thinking and the um, I don't know, maybe even unusual thinking that they bring to the table. I'm thinking about um, you know, my nephew who oftentimes doesn't get valued for his sort of innovative approach to how he thinks about the math in the classroom. So even just a first step, you know, to acknowledge that kid who's a little bit out there and doesn't approach things the same way as someone else, and that it doesn't mean you have to pause the learning for every other kid to allow each kid to, you know, express their sort of crazy ideas, but ensuring that kids get that message that we trust and value their um their thinking and their learning process and their ability to own that and be responsible for it.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

For sure. Well, Joni, this is uh this has been a good conversation. Um, it's always exciting uh to sit down and and chat with you um to learn a little bit, um, to challenge each other a little bit. And uh like I said, I I so look forward to reading comments about uh some of the things we said in this uh episode because um I'm looking to get some feedback to learn a little bit. Um and uh I'd love to hear from uh folks out there who uh are listening.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, me too, Kurt. And I know there are teachers out there that do this really well. So um kudos to all of them. And if it's not where you're at yet, just continue to, you know, grow in that direction, creating more creative students. Well, that's it for this time. Be sure to check the show notes for the resources we mentioned and others you might want to explore. We would love to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future topics. And if you're enjoying learning with us, consider leaving a review to help others find us and share the podcast with a fellow math educator. See you next time.